Shunt move for passenger train

Class15 · 28 Apr 2025

Hi all,

I’m not going to assume anything other than the facts here.

Today, 2L04 Clapham Junction to Stratford was severely delayed at Gospel Oak. The following train, 2N05 Richmond to Stratford, did something rather interesting. It went onto the line towards Barking. It ran as far as a shunt signal before reversing and going back to Hampstead Heath.

Is the use of shunt signals and reversals for passenger services permitted? And was the train evacuated or did the passengers stay on the whole time? The headcode stayed as 2N05 the whole time for sure.

2L04 - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P68603/2025-04-28/detailed

2N05 - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P68821/2025-04-28/detailed

RailUK Forums

OliverH68 · 28 Apr 2025

Perfectly fine. SWR shunt outside Virginia Water occasionally for Waterloo-Reading services diverting via Weybridge due to engineering works via Staines. Passengers can just stay on the train.

Class15 · 28 Apr 2025

OliverH68 said:
Perfectly fine. SWR shunt outside Virginia Water occasionally for Waterloo-Reading services diverting via Weybridge due to engineering works via Staines. Passengers can just stay on the train.

Thank you. It just surprised me slightly to see it reversing outside a station like that! That makes sense though. Many thanks.

Bow Fell · 28 Apr 2025

More than likely the headcode was just left in rather than interposing 0S00 or 5N05 and passengers were detrained. RTT never tells the full story.

Class15 · 28 Apr 2025

Bow Fell said:
More than likely the headcode was just left in rather than interposing 0S00 or 5N05 and passengers were detrained. RTT never tells the full story.

The problem is where - the train had left Hampstead Heath by the time the issue had become apparent on 2L04. So they would have had to detrain lineside or on the goods line at Gospel Oak, which I somehow doubt?

Bow Fell · 28 Apr 2025

Class15 said:
The problem is where - the train had left Hampstead Heath by the time the issue had become apparent on 2L04. So they would have had to detrain lineside or on the goods line at Gospel Oak, which I somehow doubt?

I just checked via the replay and confirms it did keep a class 2 headcode for the move presume with passengers on like you say, sensible as it had been trapped between stations for so long. In Trust it’s showing as being cancelled at Hampstead Heath.

Harpo · 28 Apr 2025

Class15 said:
Is the use of shunt signals and reversals for passenger services permitted?

General answer no. It’s not usually permitted to start the movement of a passenger train on a subsidiary signal.

A main aspect on a passenger line guarantees a safe unoccupied route-locked passage over locked facing points all the way to the next main aspect. A shunt signal might not always offer those same conditions. But….

Signal box instructions (SBIs) may permit certain moves with very specific instructions to be applied or special instructions can be issued for one-offs, for either, to comply with normal passenger signalling standards.

Richard Scott · 28 Apr 2025

Harpo said:
General answer no. It’s not usually permitted to start the movement of a passenger train on a subsidiary signal.

A main aspect on a passenger line guarantees a safe unoccupied route-locked passage over locked facing points all the way to the next main aspect. A shunt signal might not always offer those same conditions. But….

Signal box instructions (SBIs) may permit certain moves with very specific instructions to be applied or special instructions can be issued for one-offs for either to comply with normal passenger signalling standards.

I would imagine sleeper portions being joined must be under a shunt signal?

Class15 · 28 Apr 2025

Bow Fell said:
I just checked via the replay and confirms it did keep a class 2 headcode for the move presume with passengers on like you say, sensible as it had been trapped between stations for so long. In Trust it’s showing as being cancelled at Hampstead Heath.

Thank you for your answer. Is there anywhere where these replays can be found for the public?

The Planner · 28 Apr 2025

Class15 said:
Thank you for your answer. Is there anywhere where these replays can be found for the public?

If its a CCF replay, then no.

Davester50 · 28 Apr 2025

Harpo said:
General answer no. It’s not usually permitted to start the movement of a passenger train on a subsidiary signal.

A main aspect on a passenger line guarantees a safe unoccupied route-locked passage over locked facing points all the way to the next main aspect. A shunt signal might not always offer those same conditions. But….

Signal box instructions (SBIs) may permit certain moves with very specific instructions to be applied or special instructions can be issued for one-offs, for either, to comply with normal passenger signalling standards.

I could well be wrong as it was the 1980s (I struggle to remember what I had for breakfast these days!), but there was a train that reversed out of the bay platforms in Perth to then go forward to Dundee in the wee small hours.

norbitonflyer · 28 Apr 2025

There were also trains from the south that reveresed into the Far North platforms at Inverness (presumably to allow vans destined for further north to be on the right side of the station).

And for a while, when Sheffield - Penistone services still ran via the GCR line after Victoria closed, trains would reverse at Nunnery sidings.

Pyewipecarshed · 28 Apr 2025

Passenger trains can proceed on the authority of a shunt signal or position light if the signaller gives permission.

John Webb · Tuesday at 09:58

In mechanically-operated areas there are strict limits on shunting trains with passengers on using shunt signals - this is due to the train using as a facing point a point that is normally only trailing for such trains. It is usual then that the now facing point, once reversed, is clamped and scotch-blocked to ensure blades don't move under the train.
But in areas where the signalling is modernised with point-motor operation and electrical detection of point blade position there is no need for such measures and it is much simpler to reverse occupied passenger trains at places they are not ordinarily reversed.

zwk500 · Tuesday at 12:27

Richard Scott said:
I would imagine sleeper portions being joined must be under a shunt signal?

An attachement would normally take place with a Subsidiary Aspect to a Main Aspect signal authorising a 'calling-on' or 'permissive' route, which is a different route class to a Shunt-class route and so is separate from the rules for starting from Shunt Signals.

norbitonflyer said:
There were also trains from the south that reveresed into the Far North platforms at Inverness (presumably to allow vans destined for further north to be on the right side of the station).

Isn't this a main-aspect signalled move? Propelling past 1 main-aspect signal is permitted in the rulebook.

Cricketer8for9 · Tuesday at 12:31

I’ve left Balham up slow in the down direction on the authority of a shunt signal. More unusually this meant that the driver did not have a signal saying whether the route at the next junction was set for Streatham Hill or Streatham Common. Driver said his instructions were to visually check the route.

zwk500 · Tuesday at 13:17

Cricketer8for9 said:
I’ve left Balham up slow in the down direction on the authority of a shunt signal. More unusually this meant that the driver did not have a signal saying whether the route at the next junction was set for Streatham Hill or Streatham Common. Driver said his instructions were to visually check the route.

Another example of why it's not generally permitted - although I think modern shunt routes do usually have a route indication?

TRXsouth · Tuesday at 18:16

Cricketer8for9 said:
I’ve left Balham up slow in the down direction on the authority of a shunt signal. More unusually this meant that the driver did not have a signal saying whether the route at the next junction was set for Streatham Hill or Streatham Common. Driver said his instructions were to visually check the route.

I have related query about the up slow at the nearby Streatham Junction complex.

On the slope down from Streatham South Junction A, there is a signal protecting the approach to Streatham North Junction. This signal now appears to have had a bracket added lower down the post supporting a smaller signal. Could anyone confirm if this addition is a shunt signal, and if so, what move would it be enabling at this location?

Bigfoot · Tuesday at 20:03

Pyewipecarshed said:
Passenger trains can proceed on the authority of a shunt signal or position light if the signaller gives permission.

Or when published in the won or sectional appendix. If it's in the won some signaller get the hump when you ask them for permission, although some will be friendly and appreciate the clarification check. Depends on the reputation of the box!

Shunt move for passenger train

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