Wrong railcard used by mistake

furlong · 19 Mar 2025

So, first appeal rejected means no prosecution and the second appeal can focus on the technicalities.

Quote the regulations that say when a Penalty Fare can be issued and show that your situation does not fall within any of them.

As the PF was issued from Birmingham New Street, focus on that fact.

Requirement to produce a ticket
4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.

You had not yet boarded the train so 4(1) does not apply.

(2) A person present in or leaving a compulsory ticket area...

Birmingham New Street is not a CTA within the meaning of the regulations so 4(2) does not apply.

5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

Regulation 4 does not apply, so neither does regulation 5 and so there was no authority to issue the PF.

Further, you can quote the text from the notice itself starting "This is because..." which is also incorrect in respect of the journey on the notice from Birmingham to Liverpool.

Finally quote the bit about how the appeal must be processed - that they have no discretion in this matter if the facts are as stated - 17(2)(b), 16(3)(a), 17(4) etc.

You could throw in all the other errors mentioned, but to be honest this one seems so clear cut it seems hardly worth the effort.
You could begin with a summary sentence that outside CTAs PFs can't cover travel not yet commenced by boarding a train so should never have been issued.

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lalandv · 14 Apr 2025

unsuccessful unfortunately

AlterEgo · 14 Apr 2025

Birmingham New Street, I’m almost certain is not a Compulsory Ticket Area. Anyone able to confirm?

SuspectUsual · 14 Apr 2025

Strange phrasing “has a compulsory ticket area when travelling from the station” which implies other areas are not a CTA and/or not a CTA when not travelling. Or it could just be more bad grammar

Knoodlepot · 14 Apr 2025

AlterEgo said:
Birmingham New Street, I’m almost certain is not a Compulsory Ticket Area. Anyone able to confirm?

Had to edit.
I am sure it is not as there are no signage state otherwise.

I'm in BHM tomorrow I can check.

furlong · 14 Apr 2025

Quite apart from the various other problems with this one that were ignored, it's quite unbelievable that someone handling an appeal doesn't understand Compulsory Ticket Areas!

As well as making a final appeal, I would suggest you report this response you received to Transport Focus who are responsible for overseeing the Penalty Fares regime.

For further clarity, you wrote

it was when i was trying to enter the barrier again to head for the Liverpool train.

Can you confirm that you did not pass through the barrier so it was issued outside the barriers? Or did the barrier open and did you pass through before you were asked to show your railcard?

Also, please confirm which train company ran the train you were intending to board? (E.g. Avanti)

Fawkes Cat · 14 Apr 2025

furlong said:
Also, please confirm which train company ran the train you were intending to board? (E.g. Avanti)

OP is of course in the best position to confirm, but since this is at Birmingham New Street and they were hoping to board the Liverpool train, I'd expect that to be the LNW service: I don't think there are any other operators who normally run from Birmingham to Liverpool.

lalandv · 15 Apr 2025

furlong said:
Quite apart from the various other problems with this one that were ignored, it's quite unbelievable that someone handling an appeal doesn't understand Compulsory Ticket Areas!

As well as making a final appeal, I would suggest you report this response you received to Transport Focus who are responsible for overseeing the Penalty Fares regime.

For further clarity, you wrote

Can you confirm that you did not pass through the barrier so it was issued outside the barriers? Or did the barrier open and did you pass through before you were asked to show your railcard?

Also, please confirm which train company ran the train you were intending to board? (E.g. Avanti)

I included all of the points you made when submitting the second appeal, should I reiterate these in the final one? And no I had not passed the barriers, there were officers at the barriers scanning tickets and allowing entry. It was a London North Western train.

SuspectUsual · 15 Apr 2025

The third appeal is dealt with by different people to the first two so start from scratch and make it entirely self-contained. Don’t assume the person processing it will know anything at all about what has happened before

lalandv · Friday at 22:11

no luck unfortunately but thank you all for your help if anyone wants to pay it let me know lol

dciuk · Friday at 22:58

That is disappointing as the experts here are of the opinion that it was issued incorrectly, but having been through all 3 appears I am not sure there is much else you can do. You could still refuse to pay it but I do not think we should be advising that as it could put you in a worse position. Looking on the positive side you are still probably better off than having been reported for prosecution which was once of the options that @RPI (back in post 25) advised the inspector could have correctly taken as an out of court settlement would likely be over £100 in addition to any fare due.

furlong · Friday at 23:39

Have they sent you the wrong letter? Their reasons don't appear to engage with your arguments whatsoever, do they?

You need to take this to Transport Focus next, pointing out that the "reasons" that they are required to provide under the regulations have completely failed to engage with the arguments you presented - or in other words this appeals panel may have "gone rogue" as it does not appear to be performing its duties set out in the regulations.

If it was me, I'd take a "see you in court" approach and leave it to a civil court to decide whether or not they followed the rules and what money, if any, needs to be paid.

If the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations, then it can't be enforced - if they take debt recovery action, you'd need to argue in court there is no debt because the regulations didn't allow the penalty to be imposed on you (and so the whole appeals process was irrelevant as there should never have been anything to appeal). This is quite different from a situation where it was valid to impose the penalty and the appeals were based on a request for discretion to be shown.

At this stage it's how much your time is worth and whether or not you want to put extra effort in to try to force the train companies to identify and rectify other similar cases and learn to stop doing this.

island · Saturday at 12:25

It is really desperately disappointing that three separate rounds of appeals have failed to engage with the fact that a penalty fare cannot be issued to someone who is not on a train or just alighted from one. Presenting an invalid ticket at a gateline on the way in cannot result in a Penalty Fare (though can result in a prosecution for attempting to travel without a valid ticket and with intent to avoid payment thereof).

(edited typo & ambiguity)

gray1404 · Saturday at 13:44

It does not look like we were showed what submissions the original poster made to the appeals body as each stage. I think it would have been helpful as we do not know if the right points were made clearly.

I would recommend that they take this up with Transport Focus on the basis that the appeals process has not been followed correctly. I would strongly recommend poster cough p of the submission here for feedback before sending. Also if they send a copy of each of their appeals we can have a look at those too.

The Penalty Fare wars issued incorrectly and was therefore not valid and not enforceable. This is on the basis that it cannot be issued before somebody has even got on the train. I personally would not be paying it.

It is worth remembering that the train company are statute barred from pursuing non payment at criminal law.

Geswedey · Saturday at 14:23

I don't know if I am missing something here but image of the tickets / itinerary shown earlier does not show a journey starting at New Street the leg being Cheltenham-Sandwell therefore the PF was issued mid journey not prior to a leg starting.

dciuk · Saturday at 14:44

Geswedey said:
I don't know if I am missing something here but image of the tickets / itinerary shown earlier does not show a journey starting at New Street the leg being Cheltenham-Sandwell therefore the PF was issued mid journey not prior to a leg starting.

Cheltenham to Birmingham would almost certainly have been on Crosscountry which are not part of the penalty fares scheme

Geswedey · Saturday at 15:05

dciuk said:
Cheltenham to Birmingham would almost certainly have been on Crosscountry which are not part of the penalty fares scheme

I accept that PF regs have changed since I last issued one I will have to look up the rules re changing trains. That actually brings up the interesting point that if a PF can be issued when someone is changing trains does can a PF be issued if the train transferred from is a NON PF train assuming that the OP actually travelled from Taunton to Birmingham on the same XC train, Taunton, Bristol and Cheltenham would have PF posters but these would only apply to GWR services. interestingly XC have this on their website which to my mind makes no sense at all. https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/penalty-fares

dciuk · Saturday at 15:14

Geswedey said:
I accept that PF regs have changed since I last issued one I will have to look up the rules re changing trains.

I do not claim to be an expert on Penalty Fares, but from what RPI said in post 25:

RPI said:
Crosscountry are not in any penalty fare scheme so the PF couldn't have been issued for travel already made whilst on Crosscountry

AlterEgo · Saturday at 16:31

Geswedey said:
I accept that PF regs have changed since I last issued one I will have to look up the rules re changing trains. That actually brings up the interesting point that if a PF can be issued when someone is changing trains does can a PF be issued if the train transferred from is a NON PF train assuming that the OP actually travelled from Taunton to Birmingham on the same XC train, Taunton, Bristol and Cheltenham would have PF posters but these would only apply to GWR services. interestingly XC have this on their website which to my mind makes no sense at all. https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/penalty-fares

The OP was issued a penalty fare for a train they hadn’t boarded yet. It is de facto invalid on this basis alone.

Geswedey · Saturday at 20:23

Presumably because although the ticket was Cheltenham - Sandwell and they were at New Street they had got off a NON PF train, their ticket not being for a journey starting at New Street, I would probably have questioned them under caution and compiled an MG11 in the circumstances.

enyoueffsea · Saturday at 22:16

I’d not pay it and take a “see you in court” approach. From what has been posted here, albeit limited, I don’t see any way whatsoever how they could claim it is valid and therefore pursue it.

It’s not valid (in my opinion) and I suspect at some stage they’ll pick up on that. So worrying that 3 appeals have been incorrectly rejected though.

To add numerous caveats to this though:

1. I’ve not seen the appeals you submitted and it may be that you haven’t properly represented the points raised in this thread and therefore the appeals have been rejected for good reason.

2. I’d be confident personally in seeking legal representation (at a substantial cost) to challenge this, if required. This may not apply to you.

Ultimately, you need to decide what is best for you as an individual. You may just decide paying the £85 and being done with it is much preferable to a potentially lengthy process which will see their correspondence get more and more threatening.

Wrong railcard used by mistake

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