SSmith2009
Member
Ultroliners would probably work for South Notts 1 as they always have the potential to repower further down the line.
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Nottingham City Transport
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callum3490
Member
Saw this question asked on their fb post about the 1 and they stated that there were older buses in the fleet to replace first; NCT have been pretty honest in putting out there that electric double decks do not currently meet their requirements so i’d imagine a fair few routes could end up with diesel double decks/ultroliners within the next year or two
tram21
Member
I know its a complex topic, but it does always surprise me when NCT say no deckers meet their needs. A few years or even months ago, sure, there was nothing on the market that could do a day's intensive city work, but now, more and more UK cities are running their services using fully electric double decker buses seemingly without issues? I know London is a bit different, but they seem to have been using electric deckers for years without fuss.
A service like the 26 wouldn't fit electric deckers with current technology, and this order by NCT is very sensible in my opinion, and I'm looking forward to seeing the higher spec!
I understand funding is also another issue, but does anyone know why there is 'nothing on the market for NCT', when there seems to be things that suit other, similar city operators?
A service like the 26 wouldn't fit electric deckers with current technology, and this order by NCT is very sensible in my opinion, and I'm looking forward to seeing the higher spec!
I understand funding is also another issue, but does anyone know why there is 'nothing on the market for NCT', when there seems to be things that suit other, similar city operators?
Suprised that NCT have had a demo Electroliner, E400 EV, BYD & Yutong decker on trial recently to see if there opinions have changed with these.
Also strange that the Yutong singles are ok but not the Yutong decker
edwin_m
Veteran Member
A single decker has more room for batteries, and the designs are more widely proven across the world. NCT's vehicle budget isn't infinite so I suggest it made sense for them to spend last year's on the Yutong singles. They've clearly decided these are good enough to to the job they need to, so waiting to see if they improve further in future just defers the benefit.
The switch of the 48 to singles and now this purchase for the 26 and perhaps similar for the 1 will allow the oldest diesel doubles to be retired. To replace the remaining diesels it looks like they are still nervous about the duty cycle of a battery double decker - perhaps because NCT runs more evening services than many operators so they need to stay in service for a longer day? With the rapid progress in battery technology it's quite likely that next year's models will have better range so it's worthwhile to wait and see.
callum3490
Member
Maybe NCT are also considering battery capacity (depletion of over a lifecycle) and also range in worse case scenarios ie winter. The range of a battery double deck might be enough initially but maybe come a bad winter in 2-3 years time they wouldn’t whereas a diesel/ gas doesnt necessarily have that issue to contend with
I would imagine that within a few years as tech improves they may well have options which will match when the e400s are due replacement. At the minute they seem to want to get rid of the omnidekkas which the 6 new ultroliners plus the ex 48s should allow this to happen
I would imagine that within a few years as tech improves they may well have options which will match when the e400s are due replacement. At the minute they seem to want to get rid of the omnidekkas which the 6 new ultroliners plus the ex 48s should allow this to happen
Interestingly all the onboard adverts onboard (on the Green Line) are still promoting "diesel free by 2030" so looks like they are still hopeful!
Interestingly all the onboard adverts onboard (on the Green Line) are still promoting "diesel free by 2030" so looks like they are still hopeful!
Is the range what they're worried about?
Transdev are running electric double deckers on their 28 mile Ripon to Leeds service.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Can these do a full day's service without having to swap out for re-charging?
Dwarfer1979
Member
I think the statement about no electric double deckers being suitable is overstated, or at least out of date. I'm sure that was originally said to explain why they were still buying gas buses for the last couple of batches, so was several years ago now, and so probably is referring to the previous generation of electric deckers and doesn't reflect the improvements in the latest generation models from ADL, Wright, Yutong & BYD that have all been launched or updated in the last couple of years. Given their concerns around decker range at the time NCT made the logical decision to start replacing their single deckers with electrics first, and apart from the last OmniDekkas on the Uni & spare work the Solos were the oldest vehicles in the fleet and due replacement anyway, and once you have started it makes sense to complete the process before moving on with the added advantage of giving time to evaluate the latest options and developments that have happened or are in the works. Other than the 26 & 1, due to their interurban nature, I suspect that the latest battery deckers are capable of covering the urban work (at least with no more than a minor schedule change to even mileage across bus workings) and could probably even do the 1 & 26 with a bit of work (Arriva appear to be managing the similar 127 & 5 with electrics) though if they have a stronger early/late timetable that may be an issue to solve and be the reason for this little batch of diesels to push them to the back of the queue to solve.
Robertj21a
On Moderation
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Quite. This all sounds a bit way OTT for 2025. Even ordering 6 diesels now seems a bit OTT if it's only for the 26.
Others, like the Arriva 127 etc mentioned have modified the pm/eve schedules slightly to allow for electrics to stay on until later. Quick recharges would also be possible at the NCT during the day.
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callum3490
Member
It seems to be the case yes
Fairly certain they have been trialling them recently, the new E400 EV was on trial a few months ago - Their public responses at least are still that they have not found an electric DD that meets their requirements
Don't forget, these have pantograph charging infrastructure to help see them through the day.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
In Nottingham that would involve putting pantographs and their high-power supplies at a whole range of stops in the city centre, or an even larger number in the suburbs - or having some fairly crazy interworking so each bus gets to a charger every few hours. And as mentioned batteries are improving so much that by the time that was finished they might well be redundant.
The Wright Electroliners we have in Leeds are capable of leaving the depot around 05:15 and not returning to depot until way after midnight without any recourse to using pantographs or any other top up charge during the day.
Using the example attached (from Bustines) this bus would leave Bramley depot around 05:15 to take up it's first journey and it's last journey would arrive Seacraft around 00:10 followed by a 20 minute drive back to Bramley depot.
These are used on intensive cross city services so I would have thought would be suitable for many of Nottingham's routes?
MCR247
Established Member
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I just searched this reg on bus times and this bus did this work on Tuesday but then spent Wednesday and Thursday doing nothing and then came out at about 14.00 today so perhaps not the best example..?
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If NCT are happy to continue to state publicly that Electric DDs don’t currently meet their requirements, why can’t we take them at their word for it? I don’t think they would if they didn’t think there was some truth in it.
Personally, I think looking at it purely in terms of battery capacity/range over a day is probably a bit simplistic. I imagine the problems are more along the lines of when a bus that does 5am-1am will next be ready to come out - I imagine it wouldn’t be ready at 5am to do another day on the same diagram. Would it be ready by 7.30am or is it going to miss the whole morning peak? It being ready at 9am probably isn’t much use since that’s when the PVR will be coming back down anyway. The CBGs taking longer to fuel than diesel, and the fact electric would take longer than CBG also needs remembering. So by the time you’re diesel free, the fleet is CBGs and electrics, both relatively inflexible in terms of charging/fuelling and so would require a larger fleet size than a diesel fleet by a few buses (I imagine).
And all of this is before you even take into account line/route branding which further complicates things logistically
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