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What if, immediately post-privatisation, the TOCs had been divided differently?

backontrack

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Recently, I've got a kick out of using the Internet Wayback Machine to go and view past operators' old websites. For those that I just barely remember, there's a wrinkle of nostalgia; for others, it's more social anthropology. There's something almost childlike and naïve in the way those past operators used their websites, the particular attention paid to aspects of the railway like leisure-travel promotions and family activity packs, or in the graphic design — all OK Computer swooshes, New Labour understated typefaces, patterns fading out of white.

Indeed, that aspect of the visual design is something I find incredibly diverting. I'd suggest, as such a diversion, reading the excellent The Beauty of Transport blog post on Railtrack's visual identity, demonstrating how the company's vertiginous decline was reflected in the way Railtrack presented itself to its own shareholders. It demonstrates how these aspects of the railway smear together: so much is external messaging, visual narrative.

In a moment of excruciating boredom, I entertained a thought: what if, post-privatisation, the franchises had been hashed out differently — and we had a whole ream of different TOCs? Wales had its regional services split among several operators — North Western Trains (latterly First-owned), Central Trains, Wales and West — while Scotland's remained somewhat intact, integrated into the ScotRail franchise. And to some extent this is logical. Wales largely lacks direct, fast rail links between North/Mid Wales and the country's hub of power and commerce, with towns in those areas instead tending towards Liverpool, Manchester, or Birmingham. Conversely, Scotland's system is centred upon the Central Belt.

But imagine an illogical division of services. The 'InterCity' services — Edinburgh to Glasgow, and both of those cities to Dundee, Aberdeen, and Inverness — go to one operator. The Central Belt is split between a Glasgow-based, heavily SPT-influenced operation, and an Edinburgh-centred one (probably run by First).

That leaves an unfancied rump of diesel-operated Highland services. A group of recalcitrant managers bundle together and buy out the heavily subsidised operation. The franchise is called Highland Railways, but nobody is realistically abbreviating as 'HR', so they just become known as Highland. In 1999, they're bought out by Prism Rail. Here's a timetable that I scanned from that year of operation, via my trusty time machine:

Screenshot 2025-05-19 184623.png


This, rather hastily bundled-together, timetable concept combines elements of many post-privatisation TOCs — the colour scheme is pure Midland Mainline, the logo's nicked from Great Western, and what I'll term the 'swooshiness' was a universal trait of TOC comms around this time. Never mind that the font, 'Seaford', dates from 2023! Nowadays, the timetable looks rather cheap and tacky. This attempt, taken from the following year, aims for a touch more sobriety, with the company in dire financial straits:

Screenshot 2025-05-19 183848.png

Of course, 'Caledonian Sleeper' is a misnomer, because one of the consequences of privatisation was the splitting-up of this service into two distinct strands. Sea Containers, who took over the western intercity route, were attracted to the Lowland Sleeper routes, but didn't fancy the Highland ones. As a consequence, they were lumped into the Highland franchise. To give the TOC credit, they endeavoured to use the sleeper stock proactively, trialling a new 'Orkney Sleeper' on Saturday nights:

Screenshot 2025-05-19 191903.png

That colour scheme is very First.

The company's default look sat reasonably neatly on the Class 158 diesel multiple units the company used, although those offset orange stripes would prove quite divisive. It's ultimately a tackier rendition of what GNER and Midland Mainline did — while the deer logo broke gracefully through the stripes on the latter's trains, here the effect is a bit ungainly:

mock livery.png

In 2004, the franchise was reintegrated back into a combined ScotRail franchise. And Highland Railways would remain an unfancied little curio from history. All that remained were the last vestiges of the company. This poster, from 2002, remained at Lochluichart station until 2007:

Screenshot 2025-05-19 195822.png

It was, at the very least, a bold endeavour.
 
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Sad Sprinter

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Wow this is an amazing job, much better than my attempt to create a summer 1995 Intercity250 timetable!

I do have an article from a 2000 Modern Railways magazine that had a number of diagrams of how the TOCs could be restructured. Pretty sure they wanted to split suburban and long distance services out of Waterloo.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Apologies. I'm missing the point of this thread. Is it just so that we can have a look at a number of mock retrospective timetable / publicity leaflet designs for some non-existent Scottish TOC(s)?
 
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Nice job on the timetables, they look very professional! There may have been a copyright issue with Highland Country buses who also used the name "Highland" and the eagle logo; but thinking on it's doubtful that either the bus company or the (fictitious) TOC would have had the finances to take the other party to court.

As for what ifs; what if the Transpennine Express services had been split as a separate TOC from the start? It would have created a pretty strong TOC but left an unappealing local operation in the north east- Northern Spirit were hardly a goldmine even with the TPE routes.

Elsewhere I suppose the Norwich -London service could have been integrated into Great Eastern leaving a small franchise doing Norfolk and Suffolk locals.

IIRC one of the hopes was that some lines would be "micro franchises" and I remember the Esk Valley line from Middlesbrough to Whitby being touted. It would have been interesting; a handful of units serviced at a depot where? Middlesbrough HST sidings? Whitby? Spare railway land at Battersby? Or would the NYMR have become involved in running it and the micro-TOC use their facilities?
It would certainly have been interesting!
 

norbitonflyer

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I suppose the biggest what-if for me would have been if the Government had been serious about fostering competition rather than creating regional monopolies.
Even now the two networks making up the Kent Coast franchise (the LCDR and the SER) are largely intact and almost independent, with separate termini (Victoria/Blackfriars and Charing Cross/Cannon Street) and independent routes to Ashford, Bromley, Canterbury, Catford, Dover, Maidstone, the Medway Towns, Orpington, Sevenoaks and the Isle of Thanet (in some cases such as Bromley, Canterbury, Catford and Maidstone still with separate stations)
 

Bletchleyite

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If competition was actually serious, they'd have sold slots rather than franchises so you could have multiple WCML operators etc.

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I suppose the biggest what-if for me would have been if the Government had been serious about fostering competition rather than creating regional monopolies.

Another "what if" for me would be what if the franchises had actually been franchises, i.e. private companies operating under the BR or National Rail brand, as per how London buses and now other urban areas' buses are being done? That is, an attempt to bring in private-sector efficiencies without all the aggressive commercial stuff, like the Council contracting the bins out or something?

All Subway sandwich shops are franchised, but all carry the same branding (well, or versions of it, some still have the older look). You'd not know from looking at them that they weren't a fully owned chain, similar to McDonald's where there's a mix of owned and franchised.
 
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norbitonflyer

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Another "what if" for me would be what if the franchises had actually been franchises, i.e. private companies operating under the BR or National Rail brand, as per how London buses and now other urban areas' buses are being done? That is, an attempt to bring in private-sector efficiencies without all the aggressive commercial stuff, like the Council contracting the bins out or something?

All Subway sandwich shops are franchised, but all carry the same branding (well, or versions of it, some still have the older look). You'd not know from looking at them that they weren't a fully owned chain, similar to McDonald's where there's a mix of owned and franchised.
Indeed - in normal usage a business that is allowed to operate on property owned by somone else is called a concession.

Why the railway industry has reversed the meanings of "franchise" and "concession" is beyond my comprehension
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed - in normal usage a business that is allowed to operate on property owned by somone else is called a concession.

Why the railway industry has reversed the meanings of "franchise" and "concession" is beyond my comprehension

That's a good point - it's used the term "concession" for the later contracts which are more like franchises!
 

Dr Hoo

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I like to imagine what a Network SouthEast plc would have been like. It’s market capitalisation etc
Do you mean a single (say) 7-year ‘franchise’ not owning the (leased) trains or the Railtrack infrastructure?

I.e. relatively few capital assets
 

Sad Sprinter

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Do you mean a single (say) 7-year ‘franchise’ not owning the (leased) trains or the Railtrack infrastructure?

I.e. relatively few capital assets

I mean if NSE was just privatised as it was in 1994. I’m not sure if it owned its trains or not at that point. Does London Underground now? I doubt NSE would own the tracks, I’m imagining it pays access charge to British Rail or Railtrack
 

Taunton

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NSE could have remained a brand in charge of marketing and co-ordination, franchising out the actual operations and staffing. The concern about the railway has long been control of the costs side rather than the revenue and marketing. Airlines around the world, but especially in the USA, have embraced this style.

One structural difference, which varied, was whether the major routes out of London, and to an extent elsewhere, were let out all as one, or divided into suburban and long distance operations, as indeed was done in BR days. Different practices prevailed at different times. Where they were divided it was noticeable that a first move by both was to mount a raid on the revenue of the other at the marginal boundaries, sometimes to the exclusion of all else. Making ECML services to the north open to Kings Cross to Stevenage passengers, rather than the latter stop being Pick-Up only, means anyone for Leeds or York boarding in the last 10 minutes in the evening peak has to stand until Stevenage, when half the train gets out.
 

Sad Sprinter

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I think a London wide metro operation would have been good. At least it create uniformity and reassurance for the passenger. It’s why despite the surprising resistance on this forum, I’m in favour of an expansion of the Overground system in London.

But even if you were going to create a London wide metro operation, you may as well have it publicly owned. And if you were doing that, you may as well call it Network SouthEast.
 

Route115?

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Of course many routes were later reallocated - Northern Sprit & NWT became Northen & TPE whilst Great Western Inter City, Thames Trains & Wales & West (or was it Borders?) - I'm doing this off the top of my head - merged. There are many other examples such as the creation of Transport for Wales. Generally this caused headaches harmoning conditions of service, etc. I believe that for drivers the Eastern side of Northern has Sundays in the working week but the Western side doesn't. I don't know how far GWR is getting with harmonisation.

There is a lot to be said for smaller, more manageable units, and I beieve that the old sub-sectors rather than Sectors or Regions are the logical operating unit, although not everyone would agree. I would like to see London suburban services included within TfL at least commercially, as is already the case for Liv St - Chingford & Enfield, although it might still make sense for SWR / Southern / SE to operate the services on them.
 

frankmoh

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NSE could have remained a brand in charge of marketing and co-ordination, franchising out the actual operations and staffing. The concern about the railway has long been control of the costs side rather than the revenue and marketing. Airlines around the world, but especially in the USA, have embraced this style.

One structural difference, which varied, was whether the major routes out of London, and to an extent elsewhere, were let out all as one, or divided into suburban and long distance operations, as indeed was done in BR days. Different practices prevailed at different times. Where they were divided it was noticeable that a first move by both was to mount a raid on the revenue of the other at the marginal boundaries, sometimes to the exclusion of all else. Making ECML services to the north open to Kings Cross to Stevenage passengers, rather than the latter stop being Pick-Up only, means anyone for Leeds or York boarding in the last 10 minutes in the evening peak has to stand until Stevenage, when half the train gets out.
We all want the NSE livery to come back in full force, don't we? The last train to have it was only repainted in 2007... 13 years after privatisation and 4 companies later.
 

norbitonflyer

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Of course many routes were later reallocated - Northern Sprit & NWT became Northen & TPE whilst Great Western Inter City, Thames Trains & Wales & West (or was it Borders?) -

It was Wales & West - the franchise was split between the new Wales & Borders franchise (also including the Welsh parts of Central Trains and NW trains) and the new Greater Western franchise (which also took over Thames and the original - Inter City only GWR franchise)

NWT was split between Wales & Borders, and Northern

Transpennine was originally a sub-brand of Northern Spirit, which mainly operated east of the Pennines

Most of Central went into West Midland/ LNWR (which also took over the non-TfL parts of Silverlink), with a few parts going to TfW or Cross Country

I would like to see London suburban services included within TfL at least commercially, as is already the case for Liv St - Chingford & Enfield, although it might still make sense for SWR / Southern / SE to operate the services on them.
This is why (as I have already observed on another thread) https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2025/05/londons-three-fare-scales.html?m=1

We nearly had it ten years ago, had Grayling not stopped it for political reasons

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We all want the NSE livery to come back in full force, don't we? The last train to have it was only repainted in 2007... 13 years after privatisation and 4 companies later.
Much more recently than that...........

WhatsApp-Image-2025-02-25-at-10.16.53-1536x1152.jpeg
 

frankmoh

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Some of us do, they should never have got rid of it.

I wonder if they will even do a heritage livery for a Connex train. Southeastern already has most of it down as Connex just removed the red of NSE and masked the ends off. I also hope they keep one 376 in the yellow door livery as a tribute to 2003-2006 South Eastern.

It was Wales & West - the franchise was split between the new Wales & Borders franchise (also including the Welsh parts of Central Trains and NW trains) and the new Greater Western franchise (which also took over Thames and the original - Inter City only GWR franchise)

NWT was split between Wales & Borders, and Northern

Transpennine was originally a sub-brand of Northern Spirit, which mainly operated east of the Pennines

Most of Central went into West Midland/ LNWR (which also took over the non-TfL parts of Silverlink), with a few parts going to TfW or Cross Country


This is why (as I have already observed on another thread) https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2025/05/londons-three-fare-scales.html?m=1

We nearly had it ten years ago, had Grayling not stopped it for political reasons

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Much more recently than that...........

WhatsApp-Image-2025-02-25-at-10.16.53-1536x1152.jpeg

It's funny to think that 465908 was entered into service (2005 or 2006) at a time when some trains still had NSE liveries (the last one was a Networker in 2007 iirc)
 

nw1

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My "what if" would have been "what if they had less TOCs"?

It always seemed strange that they had three "Southern" TOCs rather than just the one. It would have been far better to have a single large "Southern Region" type franchise, given the common stock, common third-rail electrification, and shared network. When stock renewal then took place in the mid-00s, the whole of the Southern could have received one batch of new units, perhaps in two or three different designs - e.g. a low-density version and a high-density version.

I'd have had

Southern
Great Western
London Midland (note: Cross-Country operated by London Midland due to being centred on Birmingham)
Eastern
Scottish

InterCity would remain a brand, which could be used by any of the TOCs subject to the services being "InterCity standard" - much like different continental European railway companies still use InterCity as a brand to this day.

Controversially the Waterloo-Exeter would have gone to Great Western despite being mostly in Southern territory, due to 159s being of the Sprinter family thus fitting in with other GW services. This could have enabled single TOC Waterloo - Exeter/Bristol services, dividing at Salisbury, for example, and easy, bureaucracy-free through working between the Waterloo-Exeter and routes deeper into Devon or Cornwall.

I wonder what a privatised network with these five TOCs would have looked like?
 
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frankmoh

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My "what if" would have been "what if they had less TOCs"?

It always seemed strange that they had three "Southern" TOCs rather than just the one. It would have been far better to have a single large "Southern Region" type franchise, given the common stock, common third-rail electrification, and shared network. When stock renewal then took place in the mid-00s, the whole of the Southern could have received one batch of new units, perhaps in two or three different designs - e.g. a low-density version and a high-density version.

I'd have had

Southern
Great Western
London Midland (note: Cross-Country operated by London Midland due to being centred on Birmingham)
Eastern
Scottish

InterCity would remain a brand, which could be used by any of the TOCs subject to the services being "InterCity standard" - much like different continental European railway companies still use InterCity as a brand to this day.

Controversially the Waterloo-Exeter would have gone to Great Western despite being mostly in Southern territory, due to 159s being of the Sprinter family thus fitting in with other GW services. This could have enabled single TOC Waterloo - Exeter/Bristol services, dividing at Salisbury, for example, and easy, bureaucracy-free through working between the Waterloo-Exeter and routes deeper into Devon or Cornwall.

I wonder what a privatised network with these five TOCs would have looked like?
For the Southern regions being split up, I'd blame the differences in fleet. SWR and Southern are much closer in fleet compared to Southeastern; 455s and 456s filled out the bulk of suburban sections whilst the Networkers did the same role for Southeastern. (and yes I am only focusing on the ones in the true south, I don't really care about the ones north of the Thames)

1748183354096.png

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SWR and Southern shared way more fleet than Southeastern so they could have joined together as one big TOC. I do find it funny how at one point you could get a Network Southeast Southwest train.
 

norbitonflyer

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My "what if" would have been "what if they had less TOCs"?

It always seemed strange that they had three "Southern" TOCs rather than just the one. Waterloo-Exeter would have gone to Great Western
But "competition" was supposed to be good, and having only one operator to Epsom/Dorking, to Portsmouth, to Hastings, and to Exeter, would have left even less competition than there actually was.

In the event the only real competition has been to Birmingham, Scotland, Cambridge (after WAGN was split), arguably Exeter, and on some lines between Inter City and outer suburban operations (GWR/Thames Trains, East Coast/GN, West Coast/LNWR)
 

nw1

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But "competition" was supposed to be good, and having only one operator to Epsom/Dorking, to Portsmouth, to Hastings, and to Exeter, would have left even less competition than there actually was.

In the event the only real competition has been to Birmingham, Scotland, Cambridge (after WAGN was split), arguably Exeter, and on some lines between Inter City and outer suburban operations (GWR/Thames Trains, East Coast/GN, West Coast/LNWR)

My argument would be you can't really have true competition on a constrained system like the railways, where there are only certain paths available.

With some of your examples, what I suspect passengers would want in any case is an even interval service - particularly Epsom/Dorking, I'd imagine most people would prefer an even interval service to London, e.g. services every 15 minutes, alternating between Victoria and Waterloo (rather than say two services out of Dorking within 5 mins and then nothing for 25). Such even-interval services would be easier to plan if they were run by a single operator.
 

norbitonflyer

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My argument would be you can't really have true competition on a constrained system like the railways, where there are only certain paths available.
Such even-interval services would be easier to plan if they were run by a single operator.
Since the paths are defined by Network Rail, even intervals between the two operators will, or will not, happen regardless of who operates them. But you can compete in other ways, such as comfort, speed, reliability, or cleanliness. For example, SWRs Epsom service is faster than Southern's but the trains have no toilets. Opinions differ over which has the more comfortable seats.

And a single operator is no guarantee of even-interval services - look at the Waterloo to Shepperton services, in which the peak hour services via Richmond leave Waterloo one minute after the services via Wimbledon*. Or the Kingston rounders, which leave just four minutes apart, meaning they also inevitably meet at the midpoint, resulting in Strawberry Hill having four trains to Waterloo every hour, two each way round, but still has gaps of 28 minutes.

* I appreciate that with only one platform at Shepperton, and the via Richmond trains taling 12 minutes less than the via Wimbledons, there is little that can be done about this other than advertise the via Richmond services so that passengers to Fulwell and beyond don't waste time by using the slower service, and leave more space on that service for those travelling no further than Teddington.
 

coppercapped

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Again, this myth about privatisation and competition.

Very early in the discussions about the form of organisation of the privatised railways it became clear that 'on-rail' competition (i.e., competition between franchises) was not realistic for all the reasons given so the concept was dropped.

The Railways Act 1993 was clear that competition was for the franchise, not between the franchises. Any other interpretation is incorrect.
 

frankmoh

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Again, this myth about privatisation and competition.

Very early in the discussions about the form of organisation of the privatised railways it became clear that 'on-rail' competition (i.e., competition between franchises) was not realistic for all the reasons given so the concept was dropped.

The Railways Act 1993 was clear that competition was for the franchise, not between the franchises. Any other interpretation is incorrect.
If it wasn't for competition between companies in the 1800s and early 1900s, then we wouldn't have stupid arrangements like New Cross/New Cross Gate or Charing Cross/Embankment/Trafalgar Square!

Obviously such things never happened during privatisation in the 90s.
 

coppercapped

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If it wasn't for competition between companies in the 1800s and early 1900s, then we wouldn't have stupid arrangements like New Cross/New Cross Gate or Charing Cross/Embankment/Trafalgar Square!
I don't see the relevance of this comment. There is a big difference between competition between companies building railways and franchisees operating train services over already existing tracks.
Obviously such things never happened during privatisation in the 90s.
Eh? The franchisees (the TOCs) were not responsible for building railways (if that is what was meant). Building railways is the responsibility of the infrastructure authority, in this case Railtrack/Network Rail, not forgetting the Treasury.
 

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