Avanti West Coast train skipped Crewe yesterday - TM announced it 2 minutes before we were meant to arrive there

Haywain · 27 May 2025

amahy said:
This late decision seems very poor. Why couldn’t it have been made earlier, at Stafford or Birmingham, if large crowds of people were mounting up at Crewe?

Was the train full and standing at Birmingham? And was the platform at Crewe dangerously overcrowded while the train was at Birmingham? It's likely that the two problems were being discussed before the train left Stafford but there are a number of parties that had to be involved in those discussions - station management, Network Rail operations, train running controllers, train manager - and then the decisions have to be communicated. Earlier decisions are always desirable but not always possible.

RailUK Forums

Woolos 22 · 27 May 2025

Have you claim a delay payment?

Harpo · 27 May 2025

amahy said:
This late decision seems very poor. Why couldn’t it have been made earlier, at Stafford or Birmingham, if large crowds of people were mounting up at Crewe?

We don’t have the facts so can’t make a judgement on any ‘why’ questions or decide whether it was a ‘poor’ decision.

Either way, I doubt we’ll be privy to any reviews or conclusions either.

TT-ONR-NRN · 27 May 2025

Absolutely outrageous to force customers into an additional 100 mile round trip. Farsical.

Harpo · 27 May 2025

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Absolutely outrageous to force customers into an additional 100 mile round trip. Farsical.

Your alternatives??

TT-ONR-NRN · 27 May 2025

Harpo said:
Your alternatives??

Stop the train at Crewe and let customers off.
Also, your tone suggests defensiveness on Avanti West Coast's behalf. Is there a conflict of interest yet to be disclosed?

AlterEgo · 27 May 2025

E B said:
Could they not have announced ‘The next train at platform 6 is not for boarding’

I have seen announcements at stations saying ‘this train is full’

Try getting hundreds of football fans to obey that.

AlterEgo · 27 May 2025

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Stop the train at Crewe and let customers off.

No way.

This really ought to have been foreseen long before the previous station stop, but calling there was likely unsafe and the right call even if it was ridiculously late.

Bletchleyite · 27 May 2025

AlterEgo said:
No way.

This really ought to have been foreseen long before the previous station stop, but calling there was likely unsafe and the right call even if it was ridiculously late.

Agreed. Though the lesson for the future is to seal off P12 (it's hardly used anyway) so it is only accessible from outside the station and security staff are there to prevent entry, and then if that sort of situation arose it could then call there for set down only.

daveo · 27 May 2025

Haywain said:
What, make an announcement? The TM wasn't driving the train or sitting in control making a difficult decision.
#

Manage the train so that everyone on board could alight at their intended station!!

But that would be customer service

Harpo · 27 May 2025

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Stop the train at Crewe and let customers off.
Also, your tone suggests defensiveness on Avanti West Coast's behalf. Is there a conflict of interest yet to be disclosed?

No. I’m as free of involvement as much of the opinion on yesterday is free of critical facts.

E B · 27 May 2025

Woolos 22 said:
Have you claim a delay payment?

We are currently doing that

E B · 27 May 2025

Haywain said:
Was the train full and standing at Birmingham? And was the platform at Crewe dangerously overcrowded while the train was at Birmingham? It's likely that the two problems were being discussed before the train left Stafford but there are a number of parties that had to be involved in those discussions - station management, Network Rail operations, train running controllers, train manager - and then the decisions have to be communicated. Earlier decisions are always desirable but not always possible.

As soon as we left Wolverhampton it was pretty much full. There was very limited standing space.

E B · 27 May 2025

daveo said:
Manage the train so that everyone on board could alight at their intended station!!

But that would be customer service

Exactly

E B · 27 May 2025

AlterEgo said:
Try getting hundreds of football fans to obey that.

I am a football fan, if they’re not drunk then they will probably comply. Platform 12 was free, so we could easily have used that

AlterEgo · 27 May 2025

E B said:
I am a football fan, if they’re not drunk then they will probably comply. Platform 12 was free, so we could easily have used that

You can't just pop into P12, this would need planning and resource to execute as others have said.

I am a football fan, they probably won't comply as a group.

Couldn't think of a worse job than trying to stop hundreds of fans boarding for the trophy parade.

I'm not defending Avanti's treatment of you here because they should have been way more proactive (telling you to alight at Stafford and connect on a later train perhaps, or stopping at another station) but arriving at Crewe with a full train and loads of fans desperate to board would be asking for trouble. If anything had happened there would have been serious repercussions.

Haywain · 27 May 2025

E B said:
I am a football fan, if they’re not drunk then they will probably comply.

I am also a football fan, and there is absolutely no chance that more than a small percentage would comply, sober or otherwise.

Falcon1200 · 27 May 2025

Haywain said:
Easy to say when you're not making the decision.

Haywain said:
Earlier decisions are always desirable but not always possible.

Before retiring I made decisions to withdraw stops from trains for various reasons, but I insisted on this being done in time to allow the affected passengers to alight and not be overcarried. If the train really could not have stopped at Crewe without being besieged, Crewe passengers should have been advised to get off at Stafford and take another train. Leaving things until it was far too late was very poor practice.

(It does surprise me however how many people went to Liverpool for the parade, and from how far away - Could/should the railway, or anyone else, really have foreseen this?)

Starmill · 27 May 2025

The problem with this situation is that the train manager and their controllers, having not had access to the facts that a) Crewe station was experiencing dangerous overcrowding and b) their service would depart Wolverhampton with almost no availabile space to take more passengers onboard, face a hobson's choice here. That decision to remove stops usually can be taken earlier, and often it does need to be. Unfortunately this would have been needed perhaps an hour earlier? Maybe a little bit more. Ideally the passengers not for Liverpool should have been invited to leave the train at Wolverhampton or Stafford but this takes time and a decision needs to be clearly communicated under pressure. There were obviously problems across the whole of England and Wales yesterday that are anywhere in the range of travel of Liverpool, not only here. To the OP I can understand your extreme frustration and I strongly recommend you contact Avanti to complain. No question you're entitled to at least your ticket price back as you were presumably over two hours late.

Starmill · 27 May 2025

Falcon1200 said:
It does surprise me however how many people went to Liverpool for the parade, and from how far away - Could/should the railway, or anyone else, really have foreseen this?

One of my friends was at Manchester Airport and said huge crowds of Liverpool fans in the red colours were arriving and catching buses or trains to Liverpool on Sunday and Monday. They guessed these were fans who live in Ireland.

Tetchytyke · 27 May 2025

E B said:
I am a football fan, if they’re not drunk then they will probably comply. Platform 12 was free, so we could easily have used that

It makes no difference if they’re football fans or not and it makes no difference if they’re drunk or not. That’s a train going to Liverpool, they need to go to Liverpool, and if things are that overcrowded then they need to get their elbows out otherwise they won’t ever get to Liverpool. So people will barge their way on to trains.

E B · 27 May 2025

AlterEgo said:
You can't just pop into P12, this would need planning and resource to execute as others have said.

I am a football fan, they probably won't comply as a group.

Couldn't think of a worse job than trying to stop hundreds of fans boarding for the trophy parade.

I'm not defending Avanti's treatment of you here because they should have been way more proactive (telling you to alight at Stafford and connect on a later train perhaps, or stopping at another station) but arriving at Crewe with a full train and loads of fans desperate to board would be asking for trouble. If anything had happened there would have been serious repercussions.

True

Starmill · 27 May 2025

Bletchleyite said:
Agreed. Though the lesson for the future is to seal off P12 (it's hardly used anyway) so it is only accessible from outside the station and security staff are there to prevent entry, and then if that sort of situation arose it could then call there for set down only.

It you were going to all that trouble it'd be easier to choose some trains to pick up only at Crewe and Runcorn. It's a lot of effort to go to for a couple of trains.

sk688 · 27 May 2025

E B said:
Around 2 minutes before Crewe (we had passed Basford Hall) the Train Manager whispered “passengers for crewe and runcorn are invited to stay on until liverpool due to safety reasons” through the intercom. You could only hear it if you were right by a speaker. The TM was not helpful at all.

I was also on this train heading up to the parade, and the announcement ,while made late outside Crewe was loud and clear.

The service especially in standard class was overcrowded from Birmingham , and got even more so at Wolves & Stafford with the extended delay at Stafford as a result of the driver announcing that sections of the train were too overcrowded to move.

I'm sure you also heard the announcement made by the TM after the Crewe skipped stop , where she mentioned 500 people were waiting on the platform in Crewe.

The TM/Crew did about as good a job as they could do in difficult circumstances, declassifying the whole unit at BHM and being present and available throughout. I'm not sure quite what more she should have done.

AWC on the other hand could definitely have done with some service enhancement on the early morning services, but that's for another thread.

IanXC · 27 May 2025

Haywain said:
Was the train full and standing at Birmingham? And was the platform at Crewe dangerously overcrowded while the train was at Birmingham? It's likely that the two problems were being discussed before the train left Stafford but there are a number of parties that had to be involved in those discussions - station management, Network Rail operations, train running controllers, train manager - and then the decisions have to be communicated. Earlier decisions are always desirable but not always possible.

Its not quite that complicated. Crewe is an Avanti station, if the station team were concerned it was unsafe for (certain?) trains to call at the station, certainly in the case of an Avanti train, the relevant staff member at the station calls the relevant Avanti controller and the decision can be made on that very phone call. Avanti do not need to obtain Network Rail's permission to make such an alteration.

leonie13 · 27 May 2025

IanXC said:
Its not quite that complicated. Crewe is an Avanti station, if the station team were concerned it was unsafe for (certain?) trains to call at the station, certainly in the case of an Avanti train, the relevant staff member at the station calls the relevant Avanti controller and the decision can be made on that very phone call. Avanti do not need to obtain Network Rail's permission to make such an alteration.

They do if the train needs to be rerouted via non platform lines!

IanXC · 27 May 2025

leonie13 said:
They do if the train needs to be rerouted via non platform lines!

Network Rail are not going to object to such a request, in these circumstances I can well believe the station have advised the signal box that it is unsafe to pass through the platform. In any case not stopping at the station does not required Network Rail's permission; they can simply be advised the train is no longer calling.

The exile · 27 May 2025

Falcon1200 said:
Before retiring I made decisions to withdraw stops from trains for various reasons, but I insisted on this being done in time to allow the affected passengers to alight and not be overcarried. If the train really could not have stopped at Crewe without being besieged, Crewe passengers should have been advised to get off at Stafford and take another train. Leaving things until it was far too late was very poor practice.

(It does surprise me however how many people went to Liverpool for the parade, and from how far away - Could/should the railway, or anyone else, really have foreseen this?)

Alternatively, could a special stop not have been made at Hartford (as it’s the one with the long platform) for Crewe passengers - presumably the southbound stoppers wouldn’t have been overwhelmed at that stage if the day.

leonie13 · 27 May 2025

IanXC said:
Network Rail are not going to object to such a request, in these circumstances I can well believe the station have advised the signal box that it is unsafe to pass through the platform. In any case not stopping at the station does not required Network Rail's permission; they can simply be advised the train is no longer calling.

And thus, we're getting to the main crux of the issue.

This scenario would have been a fluid situation where dynamic risk assessments would have been made, possibly at short notice, with only one overriding objective; running the railway as safely as possible. That platform must have been absolutely packed to prevent a train even non-stopping through the platform.

As someone has already mentioned, a lot of people are involved in the decision-making processes (station management, Network Rail operations, train running controllers, train manager)

The armchair controllers passing negative comment on this thread would do well to try to understand how these types of situations play out in real-time.

Falcon1200 · 28 May 2025

leonie13 said:
The armchair controllers passing negative comment on this thread would do well to try to understand how these types of situations play out in real-time.

At least one of the armchair Controllers was an actual Controller and knows perfectly well how things play out in real time.

Avanti West Coast train skipped Crewe yesterday - TM announced it 2 minutes before we were meant to arrive there

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