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Sites for Labour's New Towns that already have rail connections

Snow1964

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Not new towns, but Government has just announced 3 ex military sites for new homes. Back in the war were served nearby by trains, but not really best connected by rail today

Deverell Barracks, near Ripon, North Yorkshire, which will be transferred to Homes England in order to speed up plans to build 1,300 homes.

1,300 homes to be unlocked at Chetwynd Barracks near Nottingham

Thousands of homes (so a whole town) at Wyton airfield, Cambridgeshire.

There are also media reports this morning of Network Rail land being released for 40,000 homes. Likely extra details are imminent and to follow.
Significant sites that are in the pipeline for development, include:
  • Newcastle Forth Yards: a 100-acre regeneration opportunity which could deliver 5,000 new homes
  • Manchester Mayfield: opportunity for 1,500 new homes
  • Cambridge: a mixed-use development with 425 homes
  • Nottingham: 200 new homes following 348 successfully delivered homes at The Barnum, Nottingham

 
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Dr Day

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Lots of new homes planned, but where are the people who are going to be living in them going to be working? Where are those jobs moving from or are they actually genuine new jobs rather than new office space?
 

bspahh

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Not new towns, but Government has just announced 3 ex military sites for new homes. Back in the war were served nearby by trains, but not really best connected by rail today

The 425 homes it mentiones for Cambridge were announced in April

Secretary of State Michael Gove has approved plans for the next phase of a mixed-use regeneration scheme at Cambridge North, on the derelict former railway sidings land next to Cambridge North Railway Station and Guided Busway Interchange. The development is being brought forward by the Chesterton Partnership – a venture comprising Network Rail Property and DB Cargo and development partner Brookgate.

The development supports a national and regional need for new homes and science and technology space. It will deliver 53,700 sq m of commercial space, including provision for new laboratories and offices, as the Cambridge region and the wider UK looks to establish itself as a life sciences superpower on the global stage.

A truly mixed-use development, the plans deliver 425 new homes and 5,000 sq m of flexible ground floor space for cafes, shops, bars and community space.
 

Magdalia

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Lots of new homes planned, but where are the people who are going to be living in them going to be working?
Cambridge.

Where are those jobs moving from or are they actually genuine new jobs rather than new office space?
Many will be new jobs, often in businesses that don't exist yet.

Those businesses can't start and grow if there is nowhere for their workers to live.
 

BrianW

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Lots of new homes planned, but where are the people who are going to be living in them going to be working? Where are those jobs moving from or are they actually genuine new jobs rather than new office space?
Working at/from home? Delivering pizzas by bike to folk working at home? Innovating? Caring for elderly/ disabled neighbours? Bus/taxidriving? Daydreaming?? Planning their next retirement cruise? Waiting on capital appreciation to draw down to pay their pension/ care costs? Work/ Jobs- such a 19th Century idea.
 

Magdalia

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Caring for elderly/ disabled neighbours? Daydreaming?? Planning their next retirement cruise? Waiting on capital appreciation to draw down to pay their pension/ care costs?
People wanting to do those things are unlikely to be moving to a new town to do them, most people wanting to do those things will be staying where they live now.

The exception will be grandparents relocating to be near their working children so that they can care for their grandchildren.
 

Bletchleyite

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People wanting to do those things are unlikely to be moving to a new town to do them, most people wanting to do those things will be staying where they live now.

The exception will be grandparents relocating to be near their working children so that they can care for their grandchildren.

I don't agree. Older people might move to an eco-town so they're in a better position when they have to stop driving, for example. Retiring in Milton Keynes, for example, sounds an absolutely horrid thing, with everything reliant on the car and awful public transport.

Of course they might move somewhere older that isn't car oriented like Cambridge, but a new build ecotown is definitely an option, and I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.
 

The Ham

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I don't agree. Older people might move to an eco-town so they're in a better position when they have to stop driving, for example. Retiring in Milton Keynes, for example, sounds an absolutely horrid thing, with everything reliant on the car and awful public transport.

Of course they might move somewhere older that isn't car oriented like Cambridge, but a new build ecotown is definitely an option, and I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.

The other thing to be aware of is that as the UK has an aging population and so many more people are likely to be in such a situation (and by extension not actually in need of work).
 

Magdalia

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a new build ecotown is definitely an option, and I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.
Logic, observation and experience.

Most older people don't move home at all until force of circumstance gives them no alternative. They have deep roots where they are because of family, social networks, local knowledge and sometimes just memories.

Most of those that do move go to be near people and places with which they are already familiar. New towns have neither.
 

Meerkat

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Technologist

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I don't agree. Older people might move to an eco-town so they're in a better position when they have to stop driving, for example. Retiring in Milton Keynes, for example, sounds an absolutely horrid thing, with everything reliant on the car and awful public transport.

Of course they might move somewhere older that isn't car oriented like Cambridge, but a new build ecotown is definitely an option, and I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.

However autonomous cars are already at the standard where they could operate in Milton Keynes, issues with legislation not withstanding. If planning at the timescales associated with New Towns it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that autonomous vehicles will be in operation and that older people will be capable of being transported from where they live to any other location in town.


Such systems will never be worse than they are today.
 

bspahh

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Isn’t that a load of residential near active aggregates sidings? Is that wise?
Its also near a sewage works, but that is going to be moved. Perhaps the aggregates sidings will also be moved.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...tment-plant-relocation-dco-decision-announced says:

Cambridge Waste Water Treatment Plant Relocation DCO decision announced​

The Cambridge Waste Water Treatment Plant Relocation application has today been granted development consent by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.


The project comprises the construction and operation of an integrated waste water treatment centre and sludge treatment plant, transfer tunnels, terminal and intermediate pumping stations, vehicle access, utilities connections, renewable energy generation, ancillary buildings and landscaping.

The application was submitted to the Planning Inspectorate for consideration by Anglian Water Services Limited on 28 April 2023 and accepted for examination on 24 May 2023. 

Following an examination during which the public, statutory consultees and interested parties were given the opportunity to give evidence to the Examining Authority, recommendations were made to the Secretary of State on 12 July 2024.  

This is the second waste water application out of 154 applications examined to date and was again completed by the Planning Inspectorate within the statutory timescale laid down in the Planning Act 2008.  

Local communities continue to be given the opportunity of being involved in the examination of projects that may affect them. Local people, the local authority and other interested parties were able to participate in this six-month examination.  

The Examining Authority listened and gave full consideration to all local views and the evidence gathered during the examination before making its recommendation to the Secretary of State. 

The decision, the recommendation made by the Examining Authority to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the evidence considered by the Examining Authority in reaching its recommendation are publicly available on the project pages of the National Infrastructure Planning website. 
 

Magdalia

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Its also near a sewage works, but that is going to be moved.
The BBC report is a bit more clear on what has happened today regarding the sewage works near Cambridge North.


Plans to relocate a sewage treatment works to make way for new homes have been approved.

Anglian Water has permission to replace its current Cambridge facility, near Milton, with a new plant on land known as Honey Hill, close to Horningsea.

The government approved, external the new Cambridge Waste Water Treatment Plant, despite the examining authority recommending that consent should be withheld.

Land at the former plant site would be redeveloped as part of the North East Cambridge development, which is proposed to include around 8,000 new homes and new commercial buildings

The 425 homes it mentiones for Cambridge were announced in April
So the 425 homes are a drop in the bucket compared with the sewage works site.
 

Snow1964

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Looks like a tender by Homes England for upto £950m has been issued for the Forth yards site (near Newcastle upon Tyne station), construction upto 10 years through to 2036

This was one of the sites listed in the 40,000 homes Network Rail sites in post #571 and potentially 5000 homes.

Description​

The Forth Yards area of Newcastle represents a strategic place making opportunity in what is the last major underdeveloped water frontage area of the City. It is located adjacent to Newcastle Central Station and represents a western gateway into the City Centre.
Forth Yards is a 21-hectare (51.9 acres) regeneration site (shown edged red on the attached plan), with the potential to create a new neighbourhood of c.2,500 new homes and over 15,000 sqm (161,500 sq ft) of commercial space.The redevelopment of Forth Yards is a key priority within the North East Devolution Deal and in the North East Strategic Place Partnership.
Network Rail own Forth Goods Yards and Homes England acquired the strategically important Quayside West site, at the heart of Forth Yards, in 2024 (see attached land ownership plan). The immediate opportunity for the delivery partner relates to the Quayside West site (circa 1,100 homes) but with the opportunity to increase this through additional acquisitions to circa 2,500 homes.

 

Snow1964

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Seems planning permission has been granted in Gloucestershire for the new satellite town between Cheltenham and junction 10 of M5 called Elms Park with 4115 homes.

A massive "satellite town” of almost 9,000 people on the outskirts of Cheltenham has been given the go-ahead after approval by a second council. The Elms Park development near junction 10 of the M5, which is expected to be developed in phases over 20 years, was approved by Tewkesbury Borough planners this morning who described it as the biggest decision they have ever had to make.

The 4,115-home Elms Park development off the A4019 Tewkesbury Road near Uckington was also granted permission by Cheltenham Borough Council this afternoon (May 29). There has been strong opposition to the outline proposals with more than 100 people objecting and seven nearby villages against the scheme.


Map on link shows 4 phases, 3 for consortium of builders over 20 years, and another being built by others. This phase (yellow on map) seems to adjoin the railway between Cheltenham and Ashchurch. There are no open stations between these, but were formerly some on this line.
Cheltenham High Street : 1862-1910
Swindon (Gloucestershire) : 1842-1844
Cleeve 1843-1950
But unlikely new station will be opened for this town.
 

HSTEd

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9,000 people is nothing like enough to justify a station at their modern costs.

Then again, I question whether the associated commercial development is truly tenable given such a small number of people (let alone a secondary school and two primary schools).....
 

bspahh

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9,000 people is nothing like enough to justify a station at their modern costs.

Then again, I question whether the associated commercial development is truly tenable given such a small number of people (let alone a secondary school and two primary schools).....
Does that mean than 9,000 people is the first phase and it will end up bigger than that?
 

HSTEd

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Does that mean than 9,000 people is the first phase and it will end up bigger than that?
I'd argue, probably not.

A lot of these new town developments have extremely.... optimistic views on commercial requirements and public sector facilities.

Primary age pupil numbers in the UK are falling and the expected few hundred secondary age students is less than half the average secondary school pupil count (which is now ~1100).

Commercial space is often sized based on preconceptions of what towns should have that date before internet shopping and the ongoing death of pubs ripped the heart out of that demand.
 

stevieinselby

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9,000 people is nothing like enough to justify a station at their modern costs.

Then again, I question whether the associated commercial development is truly tenable given such a small number of people (let alone a secondary school and two primary schools).....
For a free-standing town, 9000 people should be enough to justify a station if there is a suitable service to call there – a lot of new stations have been built recently to serve much smaller populations! – and the hourly Bristol to Worcester service looks like it would be suitable ... but if it's basically a suburb of an existing town that already has a station then that's harder to justify. In this case, good bus links to Cheltenham Spa station would be a better use of resources.

Our council planning department used to work on the basis that, on average (and obviously it depends very much on the makeup of housing involved, but assuming a mixed development) you would get 1 primary school pupil for every 5 homes, and 1 secondary school pupil for every 7 homes. On that basis, a development of 4,000 homes would typically generate about 800 primary school pupils (easily enough to warrant two new schools) and about 580 secondary school pupils (which could be enough to need a new school if existing schools in the area are already full).
 

Magdalia

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Its also near a sewage works, but that is going to be moved.
In recent news, the Honey Hill objectors have dropped their plan to go for judicial review.


Campaigners opposed to the relocation of a sewage treatment works on green belt land near a village have dropped their plans for a judicial review of the decision.

Anglian Water has permission to replace its current Cambridge facility, near Milton, with a new plant on land known as Honey Hill, close to Horningsea.

The government approved, external the new Cambridge Waste Water Treatment Plant, despite the examining authority recommending that consent should be withheld.

The Save Honey Hill group planned to fight the decision in court but has now said its legal team "concluded that there is little point in pursuing a judicial review".

Earlier today the government announced that the Chatteris and Sleaford reservoir proposals are now nationally significant infrastructure see here:


England could face drinking water shortages within a decade unless new reservoirs are built, a minister has claimed.
The warning comes as the government announced it was speeding up the planning process for two reservoir projects.
But overriding local objections can be unpopular and the reservoirs could still be more than a decade away from opening.
Household consumption of water may also need to fall to secure supplies amid rising temperatures and a growing population, scientists warn.
The announcement means that final decisions about the proposed Fens Reservoir in Cambridgeshire and the Lincolnshire Reservoir will be taken by Environment Secretary Steve Reed, rather than at a local level.
This change amounts to "slashing red tape to make the planning process faster", according to Water Minister Emma Hardy.
 

The Ham

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9,000 people is nothing like enough to justify a station at their modern costs.

Then again, I question whether the associated commercial development is truly tenable given such a small number of people (let alone a secondary school and two primary schools).....

4,115 homes at 2.36 average household occupancy would be closer to 10,000 people than 9,000.

Okehampton has a population of 7,300 and justified significant works (not quite a new line) and at £40 million far more the cost of a new station.

That at the end of a line so the 300,000 passengers are only going in one direction.

Build a stain between two places and the draw might be greater.

Having said that Wareham in Dorset which has a electrical population of 9,000 has about 300,000 passenger movements at its station. (It's about 2.5 hours from London, so a similar journey time from Ashchurch.

Whilst Tewkesbury has a larger population, the distance from the station is likely to be the reason it doesn't add much to the railway in terms of passenger numbers.

For a free-standing town, 9000 people should be enough to justify a station if there is a suitable service to call there – a lot of new stations have been built recently to serve much smaller populations! – and the hourly Bristol to Worcester service looks like it would be suitable ... but if it's basically a suburb of an existing town that already has a station then that's harder to justify. In this case, good bus links to Cheltenham Spa station would be a better use of resources.

Our council planning department used to work on the basis that, on average (and obviously it depends very much on the makeup of housing involved, but assuming a mixed development) you would get 1 primary school pupil for every 5 homes, and 1 secondary school pupil for every 7 homes. On that basis, a development of 4,000 homes would typically generate about 800 primary school pupils (easily enough to warrant two new schools) and about 580 secondary school pupils (which could be enough to need a new school if existing schools in the area are already full).

Indeed.

800 is about 115 per year group at primary school, that's just about enough to have 4 forms of entry, or two schools of 2 forms per year group.

580 is just about 4 form entry for a secondary school, not an ideal size, but large enough (especially if the nearest alternative school is more than 3 miles and school transport is required, as the cost of that would be significant).

If you wanted to keep costs down you could have a single site (for example you could have one set of kitchens) as chances are you'd only be looking at a development site about 1 mile across so travel distances aren't going to be significant.

Likewise you could have a single sports hall and just stagger when it's used, just make it large enough that it can be used by 60 kids at a time. Ideally you'd use that sports hall, add in a pool and gym and other facilities to create a leisure centre where the schools and the community could access facilities as they needed them.
 

HSTEd

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Our council planning department used to work on the basis that, on average (and obviously it depends very much on the makeup of housing involved, but assuming a mixed development) you would get 1 primary school pupil for every 5 homes, and 1 secondary school pupil for every 7 homes. On that basis, a development of 4,000 homes would typically generate about 800 primary school pupils (easily enough to warrant two new schools) and about 580 secondary school pupils (which could be enough to need a new school if existing schools in the area are already full).
Those estimates are probably optimsitc in the long run, given the falling pupil numbers in the context of increasing household numbers.

Birth rates are continuing to crater, so there is a real possibility we end up with an oversupply of expensive primary school places in the near future.
Especially as this is functionally a housing estate suburb of Cheltenham which will have an existing school system.

(By 2035 primary age children numbers in England will have fallen by around 10%, despite a 5% increase in population. That is based on the 2022 principal projection, but previous principal projections have overestimated future birth rates for years)
 
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bspahh

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Those estimates are probably optimsitc in the long run, given the falling pupil numbers in the context of increasing household numbers.

Birth rates are continuing to crater, so there is a real possibility we end up with an oversupply of expensive primary school places in the near future.
Especially as this is functionally a housing estate suburb of Cheltenham which will have an existing school system.

(By 2035 primary age children numbers in England will have fallen by around 10%, despite a 5% increase in population. That is based on the 2022 principal projection, but previous principal projections have overestimated future birth rates for years)
Families with young kids are most likely to move to a new housing estate. If you got the families from a new suburb to send their kids to primary schools a few miles away, lots will be driven there and it will cause traffic chaos.If there are too many primary schools, then its more likely that primary schools in Cheltenham would close.
 

The Ham

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Those estimates are probably optimsitc in the long run, given the falling pupil numbers in the context of increasing household numbers.

Birth rates are continuing to crater, so there is a real possibility we end up with an oversupply of expensive primary school places in the near future.
Especially as this is functionally a housing estate suburb of Cheltenham which will have an existing school system.

(By 2035 primary age children numbers in England will have fallen by around 10%, despite a 5% increase in population. That is based on the 2022 principal projection, but previous principal projections have overestimated future birth rates for years)

As I pointed out the numbers equate to 4 form cohorts, you could set the new schools so they have 3 form cohorts, that's a 25% reduction.

A 3 form cohort secondary school is probably right on the limit on viability, however as I said you could have it as an all the way through school site (pre school to end of secondary school) which could keep some of the costs down.
 

deltic08

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Not new towns, but Government has just announced 3 ex military sites for new homes. Back in the war were served nearby by trains, but not really best connected by rail today

Deverell Barracks, near Ripon, North Yorkshire, which will be transferred to Homes England in order to speed up plans to build 1,300 homes.
It is on Claro Barracks site. The proposal is to build 1730 houses and the development was due to start in 2017 with the Engineers relocating to Catterick Garrison but there was not enough accommodation for the personnel, especially married soldiers.
When the Ukraine war started the plan to close the barracks was deferred and no date is now available.

Ripon is now lopsided as all housing built in the last 70 years has been on the west side of the city and the A61 with only four roads down to the A61 Ripon- Harrogate Road meaning all traffic has to come into the city before traffic can commute elsewhere. Also, before the railway closed in 1967, about 60% of the residents were within 20 minutes walking time of the station, but now and in future less than 40% are within that time of a reopened station even though the new station site would only be 8 minutes walk of the Market Place as the railway is on the east of the city and all new housing is/will be on the west side.

East Leeds new town is a prime example of appalling planning and lack of foresight. It is a new town of 5,000 houses with option of 5,000 more so it could be a town of 40,000. The dim council and town planners have planned the houses to be built across the Cross Gates-Wetherby trackbed, an asset that is already there, and not future proofing it. This is despite WYPTE and Leeds City Council wanting to reinstate this line in the 1980s and 90s. They were defeated by the North Western electrification scheme as the trains planned to be used were cross city 144 Pacers from Bradford FS/Ilkley/Skipton and would now be electric. It would mean electrifying the line east of Neville Hill as far as Cross Gates at their expense as well as laying track and electrifying the Wetherby branch. They abandoned route protection in 2001 in their hissy fit instead of just waiting until about now.
It is now planned to bus commuters into an already gridlocked city centre meaning that 500 bus journey's will be needed per hour in the peaks eventually to carry up to 10,000 commuters in to/out of Leeds. Four trains an hour could easily do it in half the time.
The West Yorkshire Mayor is still saying it is better by polluting bus, even electric ones and doesn't want to discuss it.
 

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