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Will East West rail provide any benefit to Wales.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I never knew Council Tax wasn't meant to be permanent. Good that it's stayed, then; local taxation is an important part of local economy, local decisions can be made on how much to charge and what to fund locally. Though I do think a local income tax would be better, as most countries have, despite the fact that it would utterly cane me as a well-paid person who lives in a Band B house.
I don’t think Council Tax not being permanent implies it would be abolished without replacement. But it was implemented as a quick fix to the poll tax disaster. The lack of an automatic revaluation is the most obvious sign it was rushed, which has meant it being kicked down the round for 30 years.
In terms of EWR, this does seem to be another example of the botched way devolution has been implemented where there is a lack of clarity in how funding is allocated.
It was designed in a hurry to replace the Poll Tax which had replaced the Rates system.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Oh, I see, so local taxation wasn't temporary, but that mechanism of it was? Fair enough.
185
Established Member
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Is there not the option for WCML diversions for Avanti's non electric trains (from Holyhead) to use the line via Oxford during possessions or disruption?
No benefit to Wales.
As usual, we are last in the queue for improvements.... look how long it's taken to phase the Pacers out on the Valleys.....
Not surprising though, this is from a railway that having done a "once in a generation" blockade of the Severn Tunnel to wire it, can then turn such "once in a generation" blockades into a regular event.... couple of weeks every couple of years, next on 9-20 June.
Our industries have been savaged by Westminster policy (most recently, saved Scunthorpe blast furnaces but not those at Port Talbot), as with the north of England, our industries and economy were consciously destroyed whilst the SE financial "industry" was built up, all for political ideals.
As for the old chestnut of Wales being "subsidised;" perhaps provision of water to English cities should be provisional on the Westminster govt paying a proper rate for the water, i.e reflecting the necessity for it.....?
TPO
As usual, we are last in the queue for improvements.... look how long it's taken to phase the Pacers out on the Valleys.....
Not surprising though, this is from a railway that having done a "once in a generation" blockade of the Severn Tunnel to wire it, can then turn such "once in a generation" blockades into a regular event.... couple of weeks every couple of years, next on 9-20 June.
Our industries have been savaged by Westminster policy (most recently, saved Scunthorpe blast furnaces but not those at Port Talbot), as with the north of England, our industries and economy were consciously destroyed whilst the SE financial "industry" was built up, all for political ideals.
As for the old chestnut of Wales being "subsidised;" perhaps provision of water to English cities should be provisional on the Westminster govt paying a proper rate for the water, i.e reflecting the necessity for it.....?
TPO
The Planner
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Depends on the overall time penalty. It would probably be quicker to use an upgraded line to Bedford and change into a MML service to London.
This story has now made it onto the BBC News website see here:
England and Wales classification for Oxford-Cambridge rail line
One MP says it means Wales is "being denied hundreds of millions in funding".www.bbc.co.uk
Misleading from the BBC. All heavy rail projects in Wales or England will be classified as England & Wales, since rail is not devolved for Wales.
Really disappointing to see how this issue is used to whip up nationalist sentiment. By all means, people can campaign for devolution of the railways in Wales, but understand the pros and cons and not spread this nonsense about.
quantinghome
Established Member
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I assure you that up here in Yr Hen Ogledd we are looking at the progress of South Wales Metro rather enviously.No benefit to Wales.
As usual, we are last in the queue for improvements.... look how long it's taken to phase the Pacers out on the Valleys.....
Not surprising though, this is from a railway that having done a "once in a generation" blockade of the Severn Tunnel to wire it, can then turn such "once in a generation" blockades into a regular event.... couple of weeks every couple of years, next on 9-20 June.
Our industries have been savaged by Westminster policy (most recently, saved Scunthorpe blast furnaces but not those at Port Talbot), as with the north of England, our industries and economy were consciously destroyed whilst the SE financial "industry" was built up, all for political ideals.
As for the old chestnut of Wales being "subsidised;" perhaps provision of water to English cities should be provisional on the Westminster govt paying a proper rate for the water, i.e reflecting the necessity for it.....?
TPO
aron2smith
Member
Given Bristol now has direct services to Oxford, could Cardiff or even Swansea get a direct train to Oxford too? Maybe a South or even North Wales train to Cambridge/ East Anglia could become a thing. We need better regional connectivity across all of Britain.
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I thought Wales already had devolution for transport? Who funds the Network North Wales, Cardiff Metro and various other rail improvements going on in Wales these days? Are buses devolved in Wales? Given again the keenness to franchise and integrate all public transport via Transport for Wales, I'm surprised if it isn't devolved.
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Its done on more granularity than that. Local transport, roads are all devolved in Wales. The Welsh Government rejected devolution of network rail twice. Crossrail brought consequentials for Wales since it was considered local transport. There may be an argument for increased funding for rail in Wales, but this media and political frenzy is dishonest.
Even more envious about how cheap the fares are down there. North Wales & Marches passengers get ripped off and treated like sardines, even outside of the Metro the SWML fares are so much cheaper.
So how isn’t EWR the same?
Crossrail was a tfl project so considered local transport. I believe consequentials werent received for thameslink, but the classification there isnt easy to find.
Indeed, and of course in south west Wales outside the core Valleys and Cardiff hinterland it's not that different from where you are. The Heart of Wales line serves some significant communities in the Amman/Towy valleys. this in an area where roads are difficult- either very twisty rural or houses both sides, cars parked both sides and hence a 20mph limit. The "X" buses which serve the area dropped from 2 an hour to 1 an hour when the 20mph limit came in, and so they can be very crowded when leaving Swansea as they pick up the outer-urban Swansea traffic too. And all that is before you get to the mid-Wales communities further up the line.
The HOWL has so much untapped potential, 4 trains a day (assuming they actually run) is just poor, and if the C-G-C (Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen) line was unmothballed (parallels with the re-opening to Aberdare or Ebbw Vale in the past) there's potential for a useful feeder from the Amman valley and the line to be part of a SW Wales local metro. Indeed I once saw somewhere a proposal for such which included links to Pontardawe and line to Onllwyn, but it never really got much visibility.
Net zero and electric cars are a dead duck in these areas- no way of charging, and in fact most people are running older cars. So the argument for rail connectivity in these areas could be seen from the social need persoective to be much stronger than yet another scheme favouring the London hinterland- of which Oxford-Cambridge most certainly is.
TPO
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
The HOWL has so much untapped potential, 4 trains a day (assuming they actually run) is just poor, and if the C-G-C (Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen) line was unmothballed (parallels with the re-opening to Aberdare or Ebbw Vale in the past) there's potential for a useful feeder from the Amman valley and the line to be part of a SW Wales local metro. Indeed I once saw somewhere a proposal for such which included links to Pontardawe and line to Onllwyn, but it never really got much visibility.
The Amman Valley options have been discussed here before , and would be a fairly easy re-opening - line in fair condition and some decent track still there. 3 simple stations at Ammanford (Central) , Glanamman and GCG (though maybe worth considering re-building the 1958 closed branch from Garnant - Brynamman - say 1.5 miles , but GCG would be very simple and the last mile is rather scenic. As a local once , I know it very well.
You would not get through to Pontardawe from GCG - an attempt was made pre WW1 and again post war by the GWR but it was abandoned , only part built. Pontardawe looks direct to Swansea down the named valley - the old Midland line is under a main road , absolutely no chance I am afraid.
Amman Valley ticks a lot of social needs boxes and inclusion etc - a combined population of around 15-20,000 maximum.
Indeed.
I find it ironical that the Ammanford Relief Road level crossing surface on the G-C-G line was recently renewed, and of course all the level crossings on the G-C-G line were updated when the line was used by freigth a few years ago.
If England can have it's east west rail, then surely Wales should be getting some obvious and simple re-openings (and the rolling stock to run them).
TPO
"England and Wales" is a thing. That has nothing really to do with Wales itself, in isolation. It's a single entity.
Transport in Wales is devolved but an investment which isn't devolved - which is solely in Wales, might be classified as under "England and Wales" if funded by Westminster. Nothing to see here.
That said - the question of does EWR benefit Wales? Not directly, really. There aren't even services from Oxford to Wales.
If the Bristol-Oxford goes hourly, and one day gets onto EWR (or the OA to Nottingham happens) - it would be fair to wonder about Cardiff permutations. So then, perhaps.
Or if EWR reached Didcot/Reading, then the connections would be there.
Transport in Wales is devolved but an investment which isn't devolved - which is solely in Wales, might be classified as under "England and Wales" if funded by Westminster. Nothing to see here.
That said - the question of does EWR benefit Wales? Not directly, really. There aren't even services from Oxford to Wales.
If the Bristol-Oxford goes hourly, and one day gets onto EWR (or the OA to Nottingham happens) - it would be fair to wonder about Cardiff permutations. So then, perhaps.
Or if EWR reached Didcot/Reading, then the connections would be there.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
For any future for the Amman Valley re-opening , it is absolutely imperative that the connections to and from the HoW at Pantyffynon are retained in serviceable use - not just on the interlocking of that fine 1892 box , but physically there (and maybe a bit of point grease on the slides and cranks) - yes - from memory the crossings are hopefully in good enough condition to be restored PDQ. Raven X-ing at Garnant , Glanamman (?) , too far away from there and a tad limited on mobilty as to prevent me from going down and having a safe observation. A few foot crossings also I believe.
This really could be a quick win for WAG / TfW and of course NR - and not horribly expensive - say £10m or so max. Peanuts really in the grand order of railway schemes for 7 miles of passenger service.
Thank you for your useful comments .........
The most challenging crossings would be the one on the Ammanford relief road and the one in G-C-G itself, where the junction to Brynaman is. Both on the A474 road, which is actually quite a busy local road between Neath and Ammanford. I recall that when the freight traffic resumed on the G-C-G line a few years back, they had to go and remind folks to stop at the G-C-G crossing because the line hav=d been "closed" for so long!
In theory, the connections at Pantyfynnon should be maintained and working, because (I am told that) the line is "Mothballed" not "closed"- the latter would require Network Change and be potentially costly, and one hopes that someone, somewhere has considered that leaving it mothballed at least retains hope of a re-opening.
I think that the east west railway should depend on reopening G-C-G amd improving HOWL services..... and perhaps also stopping the constant canning of the Caerdiff-Nttingham trains!
TPO
The Planner
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Its easier to Network Change something ouf of use to closing it , you don't get as many objections and can reduce the maintenance (to zero effecfively)The most challenging crossings would be the one on the Ammanford relief road and the one in G-C-G itself, where the junction to Brynaman is. Both on the A474 road, which is actually quite a busy local road between Neath and Ammanford. I recall that when the freight traffic resumed on the G-C-G line a few years back, they had to go and remind folks to stop at the G-C-G crossing because the line hav=d been "closed" for so long!
In theory, the connections at Pantyfynnon should be maintained and working, because (I am told that) the line is "Mothballed" not "closed"- the latter would require Network Change and be potentially costly, and one hopes that someone, somewhere has considered that leaving it mothballed at least retains hope of a re-opening.
I think that the east west railway should depend on reopening G-C-G amd improving HOWL services..... and perhaps also stopping the constant canning of the Caerdiff-Nttingham trains!
TPO
quantinghome
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I think it's a mistake to reach for a "my need is greater than your need" argument when it comes to transport. The fact is that public transport in pretty much all areas outside Greater London is well below standard, whether it's poor services in rural areas, the lack of east-west rail routes or completely inadequate public transport in major cities. Even when it comes to south-east England (aka 'the London hinterland'), if you're looking for public transport which doesn't originate or terminate in London, basically you can forget it - it's all spokes and no wheels.
Not sure what you mean about EVs. The vast majority of charging happens at home, installing a charger is a small fraction of the cost of a second hand car and will pay for itself in no time. The biggest charging problem will not be in rural areas, but in urban areas where a higher percentage of houses don't have private parking.
Kilopylae
Member
There's quite an interesting history behind local taxation - it's one of those things governments just can't seem to get right. Municipal rates came about in modern form in the nineteenth century but the cost of administering the Poor Law greatly exceeded what ratepayers could afford. The historian José Harris suggests this is why National Insurance and aspects of the welfare state were first introduced - nothing to do with Liberal/Labour ideology, just central government taking on poor relief as a response to a local government funding crisis. But the problem never really went away, hence Thatcher's government trying to introduce the poll tax as a long-term solution (and we saw how that went). And now there's local government bankruptcies again in e.g. Birmingham and Nottingham.
johnr57
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Maybe the thread should have been rephrased, “Will east west rail
Benefit anywhere else other than the south east?”
Benefit anywhere else other than the south east?”
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It won't even benefit most of the South East. It'll benefit the Oxford-MK-Bedford-Cambridge Arc, which is the only thing it is really intended to benefit. It will primarily provide local journeys - for people changing from the WCML to the GWML, say, it'll still make more sense to go via London.
Trips that can be made with just the 1 change at Oxford will be quite competitive tbf, it'll be trips requiring 2 changes where it'll be as much down to personal preference on around or through London, while trips that would require 3 changes will almost certainly be done via London or New Street (depending on origin/destination pair and services).
From South Wales, the lack of a Didcot stop in the London trains is likely to mean EWR is only of relevance to people travelling specifically to Winslow.
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swt_passenger
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I suspect a lot will depend on whether or not fares managers introduce appropriate eg ‘via Bicester‘ fares. Recent history suggests they’ll be taken by surprise as usual, and fares won’t be ready. They’re only just now sorting out fares from the Oxford area via Bicester Village towards Chiltern stations, and that’s been open for years.
Mikey C
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But it's a nonsense to count England as one place, so that expenditure in London and the Southeast will give rise to more spending in the other UK countries but NOT in the rest of England, resulting in a massive divide on either side of the border, especially between the English and Scottish borders.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd agree that would be useful, but given that Trainline (which sells the vast majority of tickets now) does splits even if they don't people will pay less to go that way, as long as local fares are set for it, and I can't imagine them not being, they're not going to be very busy if they charge £91.10 for an Anytime Day Single from MKC to Oxford (set based on going via London) when the bus fare is £3.
Even the "not via London" fare (set by XC for going via Birmingham) is pretty hefty.
William3000
Member
It just means it’s a scheme in England and Wales. Cardiff Central station redevelopment is also called an England and Wales scheme. It’s just a pot dedicated to English and Welsh schemes.Following UK government disclosure that East West Rail project has been declared an English/Welsh project.
'HS2 all over again': Oxford - Cambridge rail project classed as 'England and Wales'
Emily Price A multi-billion pound rail project between Oxford and Cambridge will be classed as an England and Wales scheme, the UK Government has confirmed. This means that despite East West Rail being entirely in England, Wales will not receive Barnett consequentials from the project. The...nation.cymru
This means Wales won't get £360 million in consequential funding to spend on transport projects in Wales according to LibDems but Scotland and Northern Ireland will.
What benefits do we think East West Rail can offer to Wales?
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No it’s not - it’s just a pot dedicated to schemes in England and Wales. East Anglia is the forgotten region of the UK so it’s nice to get something for a change.
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East Anglia (Cambs, Suffolk, Norfolk) has a similar population to Wales but is often forgotten - it’s nice that for once the region is getting some investment.
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Well it certainly benefits East Anglia as it links East Anglia to parts of the South East and South Midlands.
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