Motorway services discussion

61653 HTAFC · 6 Jun 2025

Most "branded" outlets at MSAs are operated by the site operator (Roadchef, Moto, Welcome Break) in much the same way that the ones at railway stations are run by SSP.
The high prices are largely down to the cost of operating the sites, particularly at the locations which are between junctions and operate on both sides of the carriageway. It's also harder to find staff for these sites- especially if they're quite isolated from population centres as many of them are. Staff need to have their own transport (or in the case of entry-level new starters, a parent or older sibling who'll give them lifts) which not every applicant for a position will have. Very few are accessible by public transport, Woolley Edge on the M1 between Wakefield and Barnsley used to be but no longer is.

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Indigo Soup · 6 Jun 2025

61653 HTAFC said:
Staff need to have their own transport (or in the case of entry-level new starters, a parent or older sibling who'll give them lifts) which not every applicant for a position will have. Very few are accessible by public transport, Woolley Edge on the M1 between Wakefield and Barnsley used to be but no longer is.

Given the requirement for 24-hour operation, I wouldn't be surprised if a dim view was taken of anyone depending public transport, and potentially lifts from others, to access the sites anyway.

Some MSAs do have non-motorway access, which at least allows (sometimes brave or foolish) staff to cycle in. I'd be interested to know if anyone actually does!

61653 HTAFC · 6 Jun 2025

Indigo Soup said:
Given the requirement for 24-hour operation, I wouldn't be surprised if a dim view was taken of anyone depending public transport, and potentially lifts from others, to access the sites anyway.

Some MSAs do have non-motorway access, which at least allows (sometimes brave or foolish) staff to cycle in. I'd be interested to know if anyone actually does!

Certainly for the overnight shifts, those with their own transport is preferred. During the day far higher staffing levels are required as it's so much busier- particularly during the summer holidays. Requiring all staff to have full driving licences wouldn't be workable.
All sites have non-motorway access, the controls/restrictions on use of these exits varies from site to site. At the site I worked at (Taunton Deane on the M5), there were a few staff members who cycled in during the summer, if they lived in one of the nearby villages (Trull or Pitminster) it was quite a nice ride in.

Bald Rick · 8 Jun 2025

Had my debut visit at Norton Canes earlier. It was absolutely heaving. Overflow car park almost full. Almost all the table seating in use, and there is a lot of it compared to most services I’ve been to. Lots of people paying £4.50 for Flat Whites at Costa. (I got mine at McDonalds for 1.99).

Given it is on the toll road, which was relatively empty, it’s fair to say I was completely flabbergasted.

Bletchleyite · 8 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
Had my debut visit at Norton Canes earlier. It was absolutely heaving. Overflow car park almost full. Almost all the table seating in use, and there is a lot of it compared to most services I’ve been to. Lots of people paying £4.50 for Flat Whites at Costa. (I got mine at McDonalds for 1.99).

Given it is on the toll road, which was relatively empty, it’s fair to say I was completely flabbergasted.

Rare for it to be that busy but it sometimes is. I would echo McD being the best place to get coffee there!

Vexed · 8 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
Had my debut visit at Norton Canes earlier

What a coincidence, I was going to have my debut as well but the EV charging provision didn't look the best so we stayed on the M6. Welcome Break Hilton Park was busy as well.

Currently in an also busy Beaconsfield Extra services in Pizza Express.

I guess it's a rather busy day for whatever reason or another!

Bald Rick said:
Lots of people paying £4.50 for Flat Whites at Costa. (I got mine at McDonalds for 1.99)

I can beat that with a £0 Americano from Starbucks - just 130 points which which is equivalent to £13 of spending.

Bald Rick · 8 Jun 2025

Vexed said:
What a coincidence, I was going to have my debut as well but the EV charging provision didn't look the best so we stayed on the M6. Welcome Break Hilton Park was busy as well.

Currently in an also busy Beaconsfield Extra services in Pizza Express.

I guess it's a rather busy day for whatever reason or another!

I can beat that with a £0 Americano from Starbucks - just 130 points which which is equivalent to £13 of spending.

Unfortunately ”little” Rick #1 refuses to use Starbucks on moral geounds (I don’t know what they are!) and insists on Costa. I refuse to use Costa on account of their coffee being average at best. (Starbucks is my third choice after Nero and “decent independent“. However somewhere justbefore the M6 / M6 toll split Mrs Rick gave me one of those looks that implied that if a) I didn’t use the toll road, and b) we didnt stop at her favoured Norton Canes, that my viewing of another sunrise was to be placed in the ‘maybe’ category.

I will say that the Costa there was massive and run like a military operation; I reckon they took about £300 in the 5 mins while I was waiting for little Rick #1’s order to be prepared. The only other Costa I have seen like it is at arrivals in Heathrow T5.

Russel · 8 Jun 2025

Vexed said:
I can beat that with a £0 Americano from Starbucks - just 130 points which which is equivalent to £13 of spending.

£0 Is still more than I'd be willing to spend on Starbucks coffee, awful stuff.

JamesT · 8 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
Unfortunately ”little” Rick #1 refuses to use Starbucks on moral geounds (I don’t know what they are!) and insists on Costa. I refuse to use Costa on account of their coffee being average at best. (Starbucks is my third choice after Nero and “decent independent“. However somewhere justbefore the M6 / M6 toll split Mrs Rick gave me one of those looks that implied that if a) I didn’t use the toll road, and b) we didnt stop at her favoured Norton Canes, that my viewing of another sunrise was to be placed in the ‘maybe’ category.

I will say that the Costa there was massive and run like a military operation; I reckon they took about £300 in the 5 mins while I was waiting for little Rick #1’s order to be prepared. The only other Costa I have seen like it is at arrivals in Heathrow T5.

There certainly was a thing a few years ago about how Starbucks are tax dodgers due to their use of transfer payments to funnel profits via Switzerland.

neilmc · 8 Jun 2025

The place to use on a long anglo-scottish journey is the Junction 38 Truckstop offering supermarket fuel prices less than a mile from the motorway. It's labelled "lorries only" on the M6 signs but that's a lie, plenty of fuel pumps for lesser vehicles and good shop, don't know about the restaurant as it's too near my home to eat there.

Bald Rick · 8 Jun 2025

neilmc said:
The place to use on a long anglo-scottish journey is the Junction 38 Truckstop offering supermarket fuel prices less than a mile from the motorway. It's labelled "lorries only" on the M6 signs but that's a lie, plenty of fuel pumps for lesser vehicles and good shop, don't know about the restaurant as it's too near my home to eat there.

The place to use in that neck of the woods is Tesco Carlisle, about 1/4 mile off J43. Very cheap fuel (open 24h) and all the trappings you expect from a big Tesco including a cafe.

Vexed · 8 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
Unfortunately ”little” Rick #1 refuses to use Starbucks on moral geounds (I don’t know what they are!) and insists on Costa. I refuse to use Costa on account of their coffee being average at best. (Starbucks is my third choice after Nero and “decent independent“.

Russel said:
£0 Is still more than I'd be willing to spend on Starbucks coffee, awful stuff.

Starbucks was my introduction to coffee as my sixth form had one (well, a "We proudly serve", not proper franchise) so I have some affection to them. But now I've started to brew my own I see how it's not actually that good. I certainly don't understand all the extras like caramel and vanilla syrups but I suppose it the hides the questionable taste of the coffee itself.

The Americano was 4 shots, I'd been offered an upgrade to large/venti as it was free either way. I think that was a little too much for 4pm, especially as I wasn't the driver... That coffee is very strong being on its own so you can taste it without the normal with milk/sugar/other Starbucks additives. Never say no to free though! I do need to be up until around 1am for when I get home in Southampton, after getting dropped off at St Albans City, so maybe it's not so bad to have that many shots.

I will generally choose alternatives to Starbucks now unless I need a caffine hit and running short on time (so benefit from being able to order ahead). Very convenient when going between West Hampstead TL and LU, adds on literally seconds to my journey. I often try to do xx:27/57 off St Albans City to xx:05/35 from Waterloo so it's very tight.

75A · 8 Jun 2025

neilmc said:
The place to use on a long anglo-scottish journey is the Junction 38 Truckstop offering supermarket fuel prices less than a mile from the motorway. It's labelled "lorries only" on the M6 signs but that's a lie, plenty of fuel pumps for lesser vehicles and good shop, don't know about the restaurant as it's too near my home to eat there.

The Wife and I are regulars enroute from Belfast to Santa Pod or Silverstone.
The restaurant has plenty of variety, serious size portions and is cheap, recomend to everyone.

D1537 · 8 Jun 2025

WibbleWobble said:
There's a website called Just Off Junction which does exactly this.

JustoffJunction.co.uk

Motorway Services and Alternatives to Motorway Services just off the Motorway. Great places to eat, cheaper petrol and much more near motorway junctions

www.justoffjunction.co.uk

It's not very useful for many places, though; they just seem to have picked places closest to the junction off a map.

To take two motorway junctions I used to live next to (they're consecutive)

Junction A lists a pub and a farm shop as being "two minutes away", which would be great except you can't access that village directly from the junction and have to take a 15-minute roundabout drive to get there, when you could have far easier accessed it by getting off at the junction before (where it isn't listed).
Junction B lists two terrible chain pubs when there are really good ones only a few more minutes drive away, a chippy (which is good but is only open for around 4 hours a day) and a list of the usual fast food places in a retail park which you could just visit at a services anyway.

JG89 · 9 Jun 2025

Indigo Soup said:
Given the requirement for 24-hour operation, I wouldn't be surprised if a dim view was taken of anyone depending public transport, and potentially lifts from others, to access the sites anyway.

Some MSAs do have non-motorway access, which at least allows (sometimes brave or foolish) staff to cycle in. I'd be interested to know if anyone actually does!

I drive around the country at night for work several times a week and have noticed that there seems to be less outlets open at night than previously, alot of services I've visited recently there has only been WHSmith open, with event McDonalds & Costa/Starbucks either closed or staff nowhere to be found.

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2025

Russel said:
£0 Is still more than I'd be willing to spend on Starbucks coffee, awful stuff.

Agreed, expensive and rubbish.

McD's coffee is actually one of the best of the mainstream offerings. The key is to clean the machines properly - McDs are obsessed with that - whereas Starbucks stores are inevitably filthy and strewn with used cups so I bet the machines aren't well cleaned too.

stuu · 9 Jun 2025

WibbleWobble said:
There's a website called Just Off Junction which does exactly this.

JustoffJunction.co.uk

Motorway Services and Alternatives to Motorway Services just off the Motorway. Great places to eat, cheaper petrol and much more near motorway junctions

www.justoffjunction.co.uk

Just checked my local junction, one of the food places closed before COVID, two others aren't there any more either

Indigo Soup · 9 Jun 2025

JG89 said:
I drive around the country at night for work several times a week and have noticed that there seems to be less outlets open at night than previously, alot of services I've visited recently there has only been WHSmith open, with event McDonalds & Costa/Starbucks either closed or staff nowhere to be found.

I believe the MSA operators have managed to convince the relevant regulators that the catering offerings of a convenience store qualify as 'cooked hot food and drink', which they're obliged to offer 24 hours a day. A coffee machine evidently counts as the latter, I'm not quite sure how they meet the latter.

SuspectUsual · 9 Jun 2025

D1537 said:
It's not very useful for many places, though; they just seem to have picked places closest to the junction off a map.

To take two motorway junctions I used to live next to (they're consecutive)

Junction A lists a pub and a farm shop as being "two minutes away", which would be great except you can't access that village directly from the junction and have to take a 15-minute roundabout drive to get there, when you could have far easier accessed it by getting off at the junction before (where it isn't listed).
Junction B lists two terrible chain pubs when there are really good ones only a few more minutes drive away, a chippy (which is good but is only open for around 4 hours a day) and a list of the usual fast food places in a retail park which you could just visit at a services anyway.

stuu said:
Just checked my local junction, one of the food places closed before COVID, two others aren't there any more either

Which is why I wondered if a "by the locals" list might be better

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2025

Indigo Soup said:
I believe the MSA operators have managed to convince the relevant regulators that the catering offerings of a convenience store qualify as 'cooked hot food and drink', which they're obliged to offer 24 hours a day. A coffee machine evidently counts as the latter, I'm not quite sure how they meet the latter.

I think as the quality of sandwiches has increased people are less bothered about whether food is hot or not. Look at the M&S Food offering. Though bizarrely that isn't part of the 24 hour offering at most of them, which strikes me as strange as it requires only one member of staff, or they could even put a sign up asking people to pay at the newsagent if it is next to it. And at railway stations it's usually the retailer with the longest opening hours or close to it.

PTR 444 · 9 Jun 2025

Indigo Soup said:
A theoretically interesting model for MSAs would be for the DfT - probably through an intermediate state-owned company - to build and operate the sites, including toilets etc., and lease out the commercial space on a unit-by-unit basis. In theory this could allow local businesses to get into MSAs without having to take on the burden of running the whole thing. In practice, the DfT would seek to get the highest possible rents and you'd just wind up with the same chains run by large franchisees.

Another interesting - if silly - model would have been to hand the whole lot to British Transport Hotels as a monopoly.

I’ve always wondered if a better model for MSAs would have been for the government to purchase sites next to urban areas, served by its own dedicated junction (like Cobham, Norton Canes etc). They would provide parking, toilets and a petrol station, but being within walking distance to existing local hotels, cafes and restaurants, customers would be expected to use those. Basically like the “Local Services” concept but without heavy traffic driving through those towns/villages in order to access them.

This would be much cheaper to operate than a conventional MSA, while additionally supporting local businesses and ensuring bypassed communities aren’t inconvenienced.

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2025

PTR 444 said:
I’ve always wondered if a better model for MSAs would have been for the government to purchase sites next to urban areas, served by its own dedicated junction (like Cobham, Norton Canes etc). They would provide parking, toilets and a petrol station, but being within walking distance to existing local hotels, cafes and restaurants, customers would be expected to use those. Basically like the “Local Services” concept but without heavy traffic driving through those towns/villages in order to access them.

This would be much cheaper to operate than a conventional MSA, while additionally supporting local businesses and ensuring bypassed communities aren’t inconvenienced.

These would obviously need to be on the edge of town where not much local business really exists. It's all chains either way.

Lymm sort of has that feel even if it isn't that.

I quite like the French "aires" if you just need the loo. But I could see them turning into hotbeds of drug dealing and sex crime in the UK.

Indigo Soup · 9 Jun 2025

Bletchleyite said:
I think as the quality of sandwiches has increased people are less bothered about whether food is hot or not.

Curiously, it looks like in 2008 the requirement for hot food to be available 24 hours a day was relaxed to 0600-2200, but that it was reintroduced in 2013.

Snow1964 · 9 Jun 2025

The M5 has a run of fairly poor sites travelling South after the high quality Gloucester.

Michaelwood (Welcome Break), tired in parts, although done bit of update as has to compete with Gloucester

Gordano (Welcome break) not great, and often crammed during school holiday weekends, as traffic jams and delays during holiday periods common on that section so can be hour after previous service area.

Sedgemoor, (Welcome break northbound, Roadchef southbound), both could do with some serious updates to bits that haven't been touched, the refreshed bits just show up the state of remainder.

Bridgewater, (Moto) possibly the worst services on the network, even the car park needs a jet wash and vegetation tidying up as it feels half abandoned

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2025

Snow1964 said:
Bridgewater, (Moto) possibly the worst services on the network, even the car park needs a jet wash and vegetation tidying up as it feels half abandoned

The condition of the car park and roads of some of them is nothing short of a disgrace. Often it's so bad near the slip lanes that it's difficult to reach 70mph to safely rejoin the motorway.

PTR 444 · 9 Jun 2025

Bletchleyite said:
These would obviously need to be on the edge of town where not much local business really exists. It's all chains either way.

Lymm sort of has that feel even if it isn't that.

I quite like the French "aires" if you just need the loo. But I could see them turning into hotbeds of drug dealing and sex crime in the UK.

It could work for smaller towns and villages where there isn’t much urban sprawl beyond the main shopping area. Think places like Boroughbridge off the A1(M)

The “Destination in its own right” rule would need to be relaxed though, as non-local tourists would most likely use the car park for an afternoon visit to the town. This would be better from a traffic perspective though, particularly if that town has narrow streets which struggle with seasonal traffic.

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2025

PTR 444 said:
It could work for smaller towns and villages where there isn’t much urban sprawl beyond the main shopping area.

There aren't many (any?) places with direct road access to the centre from a motorway without going via at least some of suburbia which would cause a massive traffic problem. And don't we want to discourage out of town shopping centres now?

PTR 444 · 9 Jun 2025

Bletchleyite said:
There aren't many (any?) places with direct road access to the centre from a motorway without going via at least some of suburbia which would cause a massive traffic problem. And don't we want to discourage out of town shopping centres now?

The point is that there wouldn’t be direct access from the motorway to the existing road network. My idea is that a dedicated junction leads only to a large car park and petrol station (like Cobham and Norton Canes services), but within walking distance of that car park are existing local businesses, so it wouldn’t be creating an out of town shopping centre.

Even for an edge of town application, my idea would be better from a traffic perspective than forcing traffic to navigate a busy junction to access a service area/retail park. If there are no existing businesses in the vicinity, the government could build some units and let them out to local firms, who could employ local people living on the fringes of the urban area.

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2025

PTR 444 said:
The point is that there wouldn’t be direct access from the motorway to the existing road network. My idea is that a dedicated junction leads only to a large car park and petrol station (like Cobham and Norton Canes services), but within walking distance of that car park are existing local businesses, so it wouldn’t be creating an out of town shopping centre.

As I said I don't think there are any towns where that sort of direct access to the town centre would be feasible from a motorway without affecting the existing road network. If there are there are very few.

PTR 444 said:
Even for an edge of town application, my idea would be better from a traffic perspective than forcing traffic to navigate a busy junction to access a service area/retail park. If there are no existing businesses in the vicinity, the government could build some units and let them out to local firms, who could employ local people living on the fringes of the urban area.

Lymm feels a bit like that even if it isn't. But what you're doing there is creating an out of town shopping centre with its attendant car domination - creating a destination as the rules prevent!

Russel · 9 Jun 2025

Bletchleyite said:
Agreed, expensive and rubbish.

McD's coffee is actually one of the best of the mainstream offerings. The key is to clean the machines properly - McDs are obsessed with that - whereas Starbucks stores are inevitably filthy and strewn with used cups so I bet the machines aren't well cleaned too.

Despite McDonalds flaws, their cleanliness is something a lot of other chains could learn from.

Motorway services discussion

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