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Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

Jordan Adam

Jordan Adam

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I'm not too surprised the Streetdeck is doing well, the new ones in Aberdeen feel well put together and are easily able to last a full 18+ hour day in service. Makes quite the contrast to the Stagecoach E400EVs which struggle to pass 9 hours without recharging and have more rattles than mothercare, the nicest comment that i've heard from any driver regarding them is that "they're at least better than the Hybrids (Enviro350Hs) were".

With that said what i find peculiar is that the repowered Newpower Streetdecks actually have better range than the Electroliners despite having fewer batteries, they're also supposedly much better to drive with signifcantly better acceleration.
johnw said:
There seems to be a a lot of independent operators switching from the ADL 200 to heavyweight Volvo B8RLE MCVEvora.
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Not sure if its still the case but for quite a while the 10.8 Metre Evora was actually cheaper to buy than the equivlent sized Enviro200MMC. A lot of operators seem to have bought one Evora and then went back for more and became quite loyal to them, similiar to what has happened with Yutong.
 
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fgwrich

fgwrich

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johnw said:
There seems to be a a lot of independent operators switching from the ADL 200 to heavyweight Volvo B8RLE MCVEvora.
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I’ve always felt that a E300 replacement was a missed opportunity for ADL and the MCV Evora has come to bite them.

How is the new Aussie kid on the block holding up? I have to say I do really like the look of those Custom Denning Element 2s.
 
voidwxrranty

voidwxrranty

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Jordan Adam said:
With that said what i find peculiar is that the repowered Newpower Streetdecks actually have better range than the Electroliners despite having fewer batteries, they're also supposedly much better to drive with signifcantly better acceleration
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As the battery in a Newpower is bigger per unit than one in a standard Electroliner.
 
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Tom Gallacher

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fgwrich said:
I’ve always felt that a E300 replacement was a missed opportunity for ADL and the MCV Evora has come to bite them.

How is the new Aussie kid on the block holding up? I have to say I do really like the look of those Custom Denning Element 2s.
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The longer E200MMC's are the replacement for the E300. They have a different back axle. Don't know why they didn't use the E300 moniker though.
 
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Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
The E300 was marketed more as a heavyweight was it not? In which case, I think you're right and the lack of a heavyweight diesel single deck is going to come back and bite any manufacturer fighting for space in the market just now. Plenty of electric, now that would suit most applications. But what we don't have is a huge range of heavyweight mid to long distance single or double deck buses for Express or rural service work. There's still lots of roots that need such a vehicle and are either not getting new buses or being supplied with something that really isn't suitable
 
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stevieinselby

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Blindtraveler said:
The E300 was marketed more as a heavyweight was it not? In which case, I think you're right and the lack of a heavyweight diesel single deck is going to come back and bite any manufacturer fighting for space in the market just now. Plenty of electric, now that would suit most applications. But what we don't have is a huge range of heavyweight mid to long distance single or double deck buses for Express or rural service work. There's still lots of roots that need such a vehicle and are either not getting new buses or being supplied with something that really isn't suitable
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The 6-cylinder E200MMCs give a pretty similar ride and performance to the E300s, and should be a suitable replacement. The old E300 was never up to the same standard as a Volvo or Mercedes, so the fact that the E200MMC isn't either is fine, it's still pitched at the same audience. The withdrawal of Scania from the market has been a bigger loss than the consolidation of the E200 and E300 into a single model range.
 
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Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I believe that was at least the theory, the practise seems to be that those who are using the six-cylinder e200 on such work are not always overly pleased with it. And certainly as a passenger, I don't think it quite offered the same as some of the early e300s did. Although I widely knowledge that neither were anywhere near perfect and other manufacturers did it better.
 
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computerSaysNo

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I just find with the 11.8m E200MMCs, as a passenger, they are louder than an E300 and just seem very slow to accelerate.
 
Jordan Adam

Jordan Adam

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voidwxrranty said:
As the battery in a Newpower is bigger per unit than one in a standard Electroliner.
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The overall capacity is lower. The battery capacity on the Electroliners is 454kwh, in contrast the Newpowers are 385kwh.

The reason is likely in part due to the gearing, the Newpowers have better acceleration but a lower top speed (42mph) whereas the Electroliners have a higher top speed (52mph) but poorer acceleration, thus making the Newpowers favourable on start stop working.
 
darylyates17

darylyates17

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Jordan Adam said:
The overall capacity is lower. The battery capacity on the Electroliners is 454kwh, in contrast the Newpowers are 385kwh.

The reason is likely in part due to the gearing, the Newpowers have better acceleration but a lower top speed (42mph) whereas the Electroliners have a higher top speed (52mph) but poorer acceleration, thus making the Newpowers favourable on start stop working.
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Glad im not the only thats noticed that the Newpower has a lot more torque than the factory Electroliners, 2201 with Go North West feels completely. different than it did with diesel power.
 
Mikey C

Mikey C

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The E300 was always a lightweight alternative to the heavier European single deckers. The VDL SB200 (which Arriva liked) was another lightweight large single decker.
 
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Dwarfer1979

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Mikey C said:
The E300 was always a lightweight alternative to the heavier European single deckers. The VDL SB200 (which Arriva liked) was another lightweight large single decker.
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Essentially the E300 (& SB200) were medium weight chassis (around 14t max design weight), the longer E200's, Streetlights & Versas were lightweights (around 13t max design weight though the E200 at least got upgraded options to hit 14t with the withdrawal of the E300 though not being designed as such there are compromises to that) whilst Volvo, Scania & Mercedes offered heavyweight chassis (18t max design weight).

Whilst there isn't a lot of difference on paper between 13t & 14t max weight it was clear that the medium weights were designed around a more heavyweight duty cycle and so were more robust than the light weight models and even if you improve the axles etc to get a higher design weight the vehicle is still not designed for that more demanding cycle and those compromises show. The medium weights offered a good compromise with operating costs close to the lightweight models but with the capabilities of the heavyweight and were fairly popular as such (the SB200 more than the E300 as it was slightly better at the demanding stuff) but it is a peculiarly UK concept (and never a market leading segment of such) and so as costs of development have increased and technology has got more complicated it became too difficult and costly to develop new products for such a specialist niche product and so we have lost them (in the same way options for UK spec heavyweights has declined as the cost of re-engineering for UK is too high for possible demand for all but the market leaders).
 
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Bornin1980s

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Might one of ADL's problems be that they closed Guildford and rely on a small sub contractor for the chassis? And why can't they build on other makers' chassis anymore?
 
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37114

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Bornin1980s said:
Might one of ADL's problems be that they closed Guildford and rely on a small sub contractor for the chassis? And why can't they build on other makers' chassis anymore?
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My understanding is the subcontractor was used to build the diesel chassis and that the EV chassis are built at Larbert. Obviously the subcontractor will make a profit on the chassis which won't help affordability vs Volvo etc who maje it in house, albeit one expects there to be cost savings from not having Guildford.

Re not building on other chassis, the complexity of integrating other chassis into an ADL body is much more complex than it used to be, especially with electrics and one suspects there wasn't the demand to justify for example adapting the E200 body to the Volvo B8RLE chassis when an MCV alternative at potentially lower cost exists.
 
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MotCO

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37114 said:
My understanding is the subcontractor was used to build the diesel chassis and that the EV chassis are built at Larbert. Obviously the subcontractor will make a profit on the chassis which won't help affordability vs Volvo etc who maje it in house, albeit one expects there to be cost savings from not having Guildford.

Re not building on other chassis, the complexity of integrating other chassis into an ADL body is much more complex than it used to be, especially with electrics and one suspects there wasn't the demand to justify for example adapting the E200 body to the Volvo B8RLE chassis when an MCV alternative at potentially lower cost exists.
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Is the MCV body available on any other chassis? If it is designed specifically for the Volvo, then the complexity costs referred to above would presumably be less if the chassis and body were designed to be married together.
 
GusB

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Bornin1980s said:
Might one of ADL's problems be that they closed Guildford and rely on a small sub contractor for the chassis? And why can't they build on other makers' chassis anymore?
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It's not really a case of "can't". Alexander Dennis still has the expertise. It's a long-standing manufacturer that has built bodywork on many different chassis over the years (as did Plaxton).

The difference now is that the number of separate chassis suppliers has diminished. DAF is essentially gone; the successor, VDL, no longer appears to offer separate running units.

Scania still offers chassis, as far as I'm aware, but there has never been a huge demand for them.

That leaves us with Volvo. We saw that AD was was willing to build buses (not coaches) on Volvo chassis when the B8L was introduced but that option has now been removed from the AD website.

The old body-on-chassis concept is essentially dead and the manufacturers that remain want to promote their own complete products; AD is no different.
 
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Cesarcollie

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GusB said:
It's not really a case of "can't". Alexander Dennis still has the expertise. It's a long-standing manufacturer that has built bodywork on many different chassis over the years (as did Plaxton).

The difference now is that the number of separate chassis suppliers has diminished. DAF is essentially gone; the successor, VDL, no longer appears to offer separate running units.

Scania still offers chassis, as far as I'm aware, but there has never been a huge demand for them.

That leaves us with Volvo. We saw that AD was was willing to build buses (not coaches) on Volvo chassis when the B8L was introduced but that option has now been removed from the AD website.

The old body-on-chassis concept is essentially dead and the manufacturers that remain want to promote their own complete products; AD is no different.
Click to expand...

Scania no longer offer a DD chassis for the UK market.
 
Mikey C

Mikey C

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Wrights were much more significant suppliers of bodies on European chassis (especially Volvo and Scania) than ADL but also only do integrals now.
 
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Haru

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There are pics of a Wright Gemini 3 facelift dual door tri axle for Hong Kong, dashboard seems to indicate it’s electric. Anyone with more info?
 
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Dwarfer1979

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Bornin1980s said:
And why can't they build on other makers' chassis anymore?
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It is more that chassis manufacturers have moved towards closer partnerships with fewer body partners than ADL choosing not to probably. Though, for instance, the move away from Wrights by Volvo did coincide with Wright developing their integrals so a factor may be preferring not to favour a business that has their own competing models and so may not be as committed to your product so the UK builders focus on integral products will have harmed their ability to build on chassis. The increased complexity of chassis mean those manufacturers (Volvo & Scania in particular for the UK market) are more discerning over which body builders they supply, even on coaches where there has always been a wider choice you are down to limited options (effectively a single option for each segment of the market, sometimes a second if the volumes are high enough). Volvo have built a very close relationship with MCV for much of their body building requirement and Scania use Higer from China for much where they aren't doing it in house (though Irizar are still a significant partner for them), in both cases businesses in comparatively lower wage economies that help them remain competitive.
 
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