thomasheywood
Member
This section of line is a well known bottleneck with four tracks going down to two between Welwyn Garden City and Knebworth, the line is unlikely to be four-tracked any time soon so could Welwyn North be closed?
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Could Welwyn North be closed to speed up journeys over the Digswell viaduct?
- Thread starter thomasheywood
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
A few years ago someone, possibly Roger Ford, suggested this with the replacement being a cable car across the valley to the main Welwyn station.
Northumbriana
Member
What about a catapult? Far less fixed infrastructure needed. Just a catapult, a safety mat, and someone with really good aim.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
While the two would be fairly close together (though no more so than other station pairs on the same line, and there are certainly closer pairs of Merseyrail stations) would it be feasible to construct a replacement just onto the 4 track section about a kilometre to the south and cantilever a footpath and cycleway across the viaduct? It looks from Google Maps like it might be - almost looks like there was a station there at some point.
Logic would really be a bus service, but unfortunately due to the structure of the industry outside London one would no doubt be provided for a bit then rapidly forgotten.
Logic would really be a bus service, but unfortunately due to the structure of the industry outside London one would no doubt be provided for a bit then rapidly forgotten.
William3000
Member
370,000 passengers a year seems a relatively small number - I’ve always wondered why a small village station remains open given the business of that stretch.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
370K isn't that low (there are 4tph stations on Merseyrail with half that e.g. Aughton Park). If it was 37K I think it'd have been closed by now.
The question I suppose is whether those who presently drive and park there would just redirect to Welwyn GC, and if the car park is big enough. There can't be that many locals as, as you say, it's a fairly small place.
Snow1964
Established Member
There are too many that talk just 2 tracks or 4 tracks as options.
In a number of countries like Switzerland a single reversible third track between the other two is the solution, takes up less space, although might require a single platform to be rebuilt (although sometimes can be simply refaced on other side, like an island and existing face fenced off). These still allow trains to overtake, and give flexibility if platforms only used once or twice an hour. If the crossovers are long enough, negligible penalty on speed.
I am fairly sure I have seen these centre reversible loops on some ECTS lines in Europe, so there is probably off the shelf signalling available too.
In a number of countries like Switzerland a single reversible third track between the other two is the solution, takes up less space, although might require a single platform to be rebuilt (although sometimes can be simply refaced on other side, like an island and existing face fenced off). These still allow trains to overtake, and give flexibility if platforms only used once or twice an hour. If the crossovers are long enough, negligible penalty on speed.
I am fairly sure I have seen these centre reversible loops on some ECTS lines in Europe, so there is probably off the shelf signalling available too.
High Dyke
Established Member
Or supply would be passengers with pogo sticks? Luggage can be transported across by the flying pig air service.
Other than the cost, one major opposition to widening the bridge is that it would hide the original viaduct. I think any addons are objectionable.
That’s interesting. Do you have some examples on mainlines? I’d like to see what room is given for a certain usable platform length. There is 600m to play with on this site. The bridge over Station Road is already wide, for some reason. Are those middle platforms there from the start or added later, after removing the outer platforms?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Personally I think its transport utility and contribution to the economy should outweigh it looking nice. Imagine if they'd said St Pancras couldn't be rebuilt for Eurostar because it was listed?
Surely the widened section could be built in modern materials to aesthetically blend with the original? Stockport viaduct was widened without appreciable detraction.
Milton Keynes has a bi-di platform loop in the middle and the fasts go round the outside. Beaulieu Park will be the same. Whether anything like that could hope to fit at Welwyn North, I don't know - but I doubt it with the viaduct and tunnel as limiting factors.
In this case it’s unlikely to help given the fact that there’s only about 500 m between viaduct and tunnel.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
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Although that was done on the late 1880s. Different times now!
Snow1964
Established Member
There is a viaduct near me at Wellow (on closed Somerset & Dorset line), where one side is stone, but when line was widened the newer part is brick. So unmatched styles already exist where widening has taken place.
stevieinselby
Member
It would look very odd to have a modern concrete viaduct right next to a 40-arch brick viaduct though. I'm not saying either one is more or less attractive than the other, but the juxtaposition of the two would look jarring. The line is right in the middle of a residential area, and so any works would be very disruptive to people living nearby, as well as almost certainly requiring CP and demolition of several properties – and on top of all that, you would then need a second bore for the two tunnels north of the station.
The full HS2 programme would have largely obviated the need to do anything about Welwyn North, because there would be much less demand for fast long-distance services out of Kings Cross – and pound-for-pound, HS2 would be much better value than 4-tracking the viaduct, station and tunnels.
Absolutely.
I have only been on this forum less than 4 years and I have already lost count of the number of times this has been raised.
There are 4 listed structures on the 2 track section: the viaduct, the station building, the station footbridge, and the tunnel portal that is visible from the station.
Average entrances/exits per day more than 1000.
Welwyn North has just over 250 car park spaces, Knebworth has 50 and Welwyn Garden City has no railway parking. The car park visible from the train at Welwyn Garden City is part of the Howard Centre and charges £8.50 for stays of over 5 hours.
Welwyn North is mainly for Digswell and Old Welwyn, the bit that existed before the Garden City. Old Welwyn is the other side of the A1(M) junction 6 and is at river level, so not suitable for active travel to Welwyn North.
William3000
Member
It’s pretty low relative to other stations in the area
Failed Unit
Established Member
Welwyn Garden City does actually have railway parking, if you look to the right of the train as you are heading south your will see it.
In terms of building a new station, on the South side it would be so close to Welwyn Garden City there would not be much point, in terms of congestion you have passed the worse part anyway so you might as well keep driving to get to Welwyn Garden City and have the Moorgates / Thameslink.
Build it to the North (on the 4 track) you have the tunnel and no really decent roads to get to the new station.
I don't think it really causes much of a problem off-peak. In the peak I don't understand why it gets 4tph. Taking it down to 2 would be much more sensible. At the moment in the evening peak the fastest London KX - Welwyn Garden City service actually involves a change at Welwyn North. GNER wanted it closing, it survives. Even if I am at that end of town I prefer to get to WGC for the extra choice of trains. If the service goes Pete Tong, they will often stop trains additionally at Welwyn GC, they are less keen to do so at Welwyn North. The extra stops are more to do with getting staff to the depot rather than customers where they want to be.
In terms of building a new station, on the South side it would be so close to Welwyn Garden City there would not be much point, in terms of congestion you have passed the worse part anyway so you might as well keep driving to get to Welwyn Garden City and have the Moorgates / Thameslink.
Build it to the North (on the 4 track) you have the tunnel and no really decent roads to get to the new station.
I don't think it really causes much of a problem off-peak. In the peak I don't understand why it gets 4tph. Taking it down to 2 would be much more sensible. At the moment in the evening peak the fastest London KX - Welwyn Garden City service actually involves a change at Welwyn North. GNER wanted it closing, it survives. Even if I am at that end of town I prefer to get to WGC for the extra choice of trains. If the service goes Pete Tong, they will often stop trains additionally at Welwyn GC, they are less keen to do so at Welwyn North. The extra stops are more to do with getting staff to the depot rather than customers where they want to be.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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Huh, good to know that I am not the only one who has thought of that!
Even a simple D-Line monocable detachable grip gondola would complete the journey in about six minutes.
Could probably avoid any compulsory purchases of dwellings.
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furnessvale
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Indeed, such considerations did not stop the Swiss doubling the BLS main line.
What you see is the Howard Centre's car park.
Network Rail website shows no car parking for Welwyn Garden City.
Stockport is good from a distance—and that is the iconic view—but close up you can see clearly what was done. And I don't recall any great howls of anguish (like for Durham or the Royal Border Bridge) when the wires were put up back in the 50s.
Other examples worth considering might be Brunel's Maidenhead bridge and Wharncliffe viaduct, both widened by the Great Western and no-one seems to have any complaints about that today. Have we just become too over-sensitive (squeamish?) today?