erikvd28
Member
Maybe a stupid question but are there any plans to electrificate the line between Birmingham and Derby? As I find it rather odd for a 125mph diesel line!
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Any plans to electrify the line between Birmingham and Derby?
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Little point until the wires have reached Derby, Nottingham (and Sheffield/ Doncaster/Leeds) via the MML. Once that’s done it makes a lot of sense.
stevieinselby
Member
The Voyagers and Turbostars that XCountry use have probably got another 15–20 years of life left in them.
The Voyagers in particular don't have an obvious destination if they were taken off the XC network, so I can't see them being replaced before that, and I'm not sure there's a huge demand for 29 second-hand Turbostars either.
So while the trains running on the route remain as diesels, there's no point in electrifying it – and until the MML is wired up and connected to the ECML plus significantly more miles beyond that, there wouldn't be much value in doing it for freight either.
I'm sure that as and when the Voyagers and Turbostars are reaching the end of their useful life, there will be moves to electrify the line, but not until then.
HSTEd
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The only way I can see it happening is if they want to try and connect the stub of the eastern branch of HS2 onto the line to serve Nottingham and Derby.
Other than that, I don't see much point.
Other than that, I don't see much point.
However given the timelines to deliver electrification, then probably there's a need to start designing the scheme sooner rather than later.
Or there will be moves to introduce battery rolling stock. All depends on the pace of change with batteries and the cost of electrification. Birmingham to Derby may conceivably never be electrified, relying on trains charging between Derby and Sheffield and north of Moorthorpe, although some additional parts of the XC NE-SW route south of Derby would need to be.
Even with batteries, the highest speed sections will have the highest power draw, so would be the obvious place to provide wires, and the batteries could be saved for the <100mph parts.
Yes, but logically if Derby to Sheffield and the gaps between Birmingham and Bromsgrove were filled and electrification extended a bit further south, then Birmingham to Derby would be a natural gap not to do.
stevieinselby
Member
Being used by 4tph, Birmingham to Derby has a very good case for being electrified even if battery bi-mode trains are running, as it would be one of the more intensively used sections of their route and would reduce the need for wiring up less intensively used lines south of Birmingham. And as it's a 125mph line, that's where trains will be using most power, so batteries wouldn't take the trains as far on that line as they would on a 100mph line, meaning that you could get away with less wiring overall.
Struggling to think of many bits of the mainline south of Birmingham (and north of Exeter or even Aller Junction) that don’t have at least 4tph. Norton Junction - Stoke Works possibly and the non station side of the Gloucester triangle, but surely the rest does.
4tph and 125mph line speed in itself ought to go a good way to justifying electrification. I think aerodynamic drag increases as the square of speed, and that's a significant part of the energy needed to keep a train moving.
You'll definitely get more miles per kWh at lower speeds, so wires on higher speed sections will give bigger benefits.
You'll definitely get more miles per kWh at lower speeds, so wires on higher speed sections will give bigger benefits.
HSTEd
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Whilst power draw to maintain 125mph is higher than at lower speeds (aerodynamic resistance is the square of speed), the amount of time that any given overhead wiring length can supply a train is inversely related to speed.
This dilutes this advantage.
Given that higher speed overhead wiring has tended to be more expensive than lower speed wiring, I think the economics of favouring 125mph sections over slower sections is unclear.
This dilutes this advantage.
Given that higher speed overhead wiring has tended to be more expensive than lower speed wiring, I think the economics of favouring 125mph sections over slower sections is unclear.
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Halish Railway
Established Member
One point I’d make about it is that electrifying the route would probably be only one part of the equation. The whole route needs a wholesale upgrade to remove a lot of bottlenecks and and speed restrictions.
These include increasing the linespeed through Burton-on-Trent, ideally extending four tracking ideally from Burton-on-Trent to north of Tamworth to remove the nuisance of freight trains slowing to a stop when entering Elford loop to allow passenger trains to overtake, increasing the linespeed of turnouts, install four-aspect signalling throughout, do something to avoid northbound trains from Kingsbury oil terminal reversing onto the mainline to begin its journey and remodelling/possibly grade separating junctions like Water Orton.
Electrification on its own doesn’t sort out all the performance risks on the route, it only decarbonises passenger trains going at top speed.
These include increasing the linespeed through Burton-on-Trent, ideally extending four tracking ideally from Burton-on-Trent to north of Tamworth to remove the nuisance of freight trains slowing to a stop when entering Elford loop to allow passenger trains to overtake, increasing the linespeed of turnouts, install four-aspect signalling throughout, do something to avoid northbound trains from Kingsbury oil terminal reversing onto the mainline to begin its journey and remodelling/possibly grade separating junctions like Water Orton.
Electrification on its own doesn’t sort out all the performance risks on the route, it only decarbonises passenger trains going at top speed.
HSTEd
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A lot of that work would be extremely expensive however.
I don't think its likely there will be much money available for that sort of thing.
Not sure its worth doing much for the benefit of Kingsbury Oil terminal, given that the liquid fuels sales business in the UK does not have a bright future.
The Planner
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It was meant to be 4 aspect as part of Water Orton resignalling, it will likely finally get fixed with Midlands Rail Hub along side Water Orton being remodeled. Elford is useless with its 15mph entry and exit, I agree, but its often the only place to hold something going into Kingsbury. Kingsbury Jn isn't just the oil terminal, its also Birch Coppice Intermodal.
Still got 20+ years though, at an estimate!
Halish Railway
Established Member
I doubt that electrification on its own would do well in a cost:benefit appraisal. I’d imagine that the electrification of Birmingham to Derby would be a lot like the Transpennine Route upgrade, where electrification on its own is not deemed to be good value for money, hence the scope was expanded to increase linespeeds and eliminate bottlenecks.
I don’t think that this scheme would be to the same extent as TRU and I do think that on a cost/mile basis this scheme would be cheaper given the much more favourable topography and lack of urbanisation between Tamworth and Burton-on-Trent.
That’s good, is there a timescale for when Water Orton will be remodelled and four-aspect signalling installed?
AlastairFraser
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Maybe it is worth electrifying a short section, to extend the Cross City Line approximately 11.5 miles from Lichfield Trent Valley to Burton on Trent, with a parkway station at Alrewas.
Not only would this relieve XC services into Birmingham, and give options for the north of the West Midlands county/southern Staffs to head north or east without doubling back via a congested New St, but it would bolster the chances of reopening for the western half of the Ivanhoe line through Swadlincote and Coalville to Leicester.
With a more frequent and higher capacity service at Burton on Trent, it would be easier to time reasonable connections from the Ivanhoe line into Birmingham/vice versa, and there's a population of more than 100k unserved potential rail passengers within catchment if you chose to reopen stations at Leicester Forest East, Coalville, Ashby-de-la Zouch and Castle Gresley (for the Swadlincote area).
Electrifying as far as Burton from Lichfield would therefore reopen a host of opportunities, as well as relieving an incredibly congested corridor with plenty of suppressed passenger demand.
The Planner
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Whenever MRH gets going. 5-6 years minimum.
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It wouldn't relieve it though as XC will always be quicker.
AlastairFraser
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Couldn't you incentivise passengers to use WMT by offering cheaper Advances via Lichfield?
The Planner
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Then it becomes rammed before you get to Lichfield, Four Oaks and Sutton Coldifeld.
AlastairFraser
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With the frequency and capacity of the CCC compared to XC, is that a realistic prospect?
Yes, definitely.
AlastairFraser
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Fair enough, with a 6 car 730, you have 402 seats twice an hour, and then an additional 402 seats twice an hour from Four Oaks towards Birmingham (which are unlikely to get congested with Lichfield or Burton passengers).
Burton to Birmingham is always going to be more attractive on the fast trains. Extending the cross city line out there would be good for people living on the route who need to access Burton and stations beyond and vice versa, but I doubt it'd do any good relieving the XC trains.
The cross city line is one of those where advance fares should have no place. It's a local suburban service.
The cross city line is one of those where advance fares should have no place. It's a local suburban service.
If a connection to HS2 were to be built, would that take place from the stub at Delta Junction, joining at Kingsbury or further up at Lichfield, where it can join the South Staffordshire line and bypass Tamworth, potentially increasing capacity. I can't see the argument for rerouting local services via Lichfield, the time penalty would be massive, and once Kingsbury and Water Orton are sorted to an extent, there is substantial capacity.
Bevan Price
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I think it only makes sense if electrification continues all the way to Bristol. It probably will happen - eventually, but some of us may not be around long enough to see it happen....
The Planner
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You would do it at Delta Jn. Anywhere else needs a brand new junction and lengthy chord, aswell as resignaling the South Staffs, getting rid of the manned level crossings and sorting out Wichnor.
In general, as long as the journey time isn't so long that the fast train doesn't overtake the slower train it still means getting where you're going sooner to take the slower service.
For example if a hypothetical fast train takes 45 minutes and the slow train takes 55 minutes then a slow train leaving at xx:05 would still arrive (xy:00) before a fast train leaving at xx:25 (xy:10).
Yes those who can may try and aim for the faster services, however if you're going to get a seat you may well it to spend 40 minutes sat down over 25 minutes stood up.
The numbers switching may not be large, however each person which does means more space for those who don't.
I don't know how long it would take from Burton on the cross city, but Lichfield TV too New St is 45 minutes on the 0709 departure, so I'd guess it'd be doing well too get in from Burton in less than an hour given that it's 11 miles in a straight line. The fast trains from Burton such as the 0738 take 35 minutes, so it's very likely that the Lichfield train will be be overtaken.