Any plans to electrify the line between Birmingham and Derby?

duffield · 13 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
I don't know how long it would take from Burton on the cross city, but Lichfield TV too New St is 45 minutes on the 0709 departure, so I'd guess it'd be doing well too get in from Burton in less than an hour given that it's 11 miles in a straight line. The fast trains from Burton such as the 0738 take 35 minutes, so it's very likely that the Lichfield train will be be overtaken.

The 45 minute journey from Lichfield to Birmingham is with eleven intermediate stops though, probably costing around 20 minutes. It's only about 18 miles. All the way from Burton to Birmingham via Lichfield is only 30 miles approx.

For the Lichfield route to make sense for Burton-Birmingham New Street you'd really need the service to be limited stop and to overtake a stopping service at some point. If the Burton service left Lichfield around 8 minutes after the existing Bromsgrove service it could follow it in to Four Oaks and overtake it there, then it would arrive at New street (with no further stops or maybe just one) just after the Four Oaks to Redditch service, giving about 25 minutes Lichfield to Birmingham. Current ECS moves by XC take 15 minutes Burton to Lichfield, not stopping at either, so you could maybe make it in 20 with a stop at Alrewas. That gives you around a 45 minute total journey vs 35 for the Tamworth route, and also gives you faster services from Lichfield and Four Oaks (plus maybe one other station) to Birmingham, freeing up some seats on the stoppers.

45 minutes Burton to Birmingham doesn't sound too crazy for 30 miles with three or four stops.

Of course, this would need Four Oaks infrastructure improvements (probably four through platforms, but it looks like there's room) and maybe other enhancements, and may well not be financially viable, plus it might well be too fragile to timetable around the stoppers like that in practice.

RailUK Forums

JLH4AC · 13 Jun 2025

stevieinselby said:
The Voyagers and Turbostars that XCountry use have probably got another 15–20 years of life left in them.

If the Government stays course with the plan to phase out diesel-only trains by 2040, Voyagers and Turbostar have at most 15 years service of life left in the UK.

stevieinselby said:
The Voyagers in particular don't have an obvious destination if they were taken off the XC network, so I can't see them being replaced before that,

That was also the case with the Class 222 before the EMR ordered the Class 810s to replace them. Even if they order off-the-shelf Intercity trains this year and the process goes smoothly, it will still be several years before the Voyager fleet is replaced, I doubt that Arriva would make such an order since the CrossCountry franchise is set to end in October 2027.

stevieinselby said:
and I'm not sure there's a huge demand for 29 second-hand Turbostars either.

Additional Turbostars would allow EMR and Northren to dispose of more of their Sprinters (Though the WMR gangwayed class 172s would be best for EMR as their Class 158s operate mostly on the Liverpool to Norwich services which splits at Nottingham) and allow EMR to operate additional/more frequent services.

satisnek · 14 Jun 2025

Does the Grade II listed brick-lined cutting with brick arch overbridges through Belper pose a problem for electrification north of Derby?

Russel · 14 Jun 2025

satisnek said:
Does the Grade II listed brick-lined cutting with brick arch overbridges through Belper pose a problem for electrification north of Derby?

Would assume so as none of the bridges look to have clearance for overhead cables, unless a conductor rail is used, as is at St Pancras low level?

Zomboid · 14 Jun 2025

satisnek said:
Does the Grade II listed brick-lined cutting with brick arch overbridges through Belper pose a problem for electrification north of Derby?

It'll no doubt add complication, but that kind of thing is not insurmountable.

DDB · 14 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
It'll no doubt add complication, but that kind of thing is not insurmountable.

Years and years ago before electrification was cancelled ago I went to a public information event in Belper which laid out the plans for it. So they had a solution then and I doubt anything will have changed.

IIRC it was track lowering for all except the most Northern bridge or two as they couldn't lower too close to the viaduct over a bidy of water just North of the town.

Senex · 14 Jun 2025

DDB said:
Years and years ago before electrification was cancelled ago I went to a public information event in Belper which laid out the plans for it. So they had a solution then and I doubt anything will have changed.

IIRC it was track lowering for all except the most Northern bridge or two as they couldn't lower too close to the viaduct over a bidy of water just North of the town.

Examples from earlier years like the first electrification of St Pancras station, the Royal Border Bridge, Durham viaduct, and many more, even up to the Chorley flying arches, prove that, although OLE always intrudes it can be designed to intrude as minimally and elegantly as possible. Long lengths of continental main lines shew that OLE can be fitted acceptably into important landscapes/cityscapes. It does rather seem to be only in this country that in recent times electrification has become so hideously ugly, to the point where many people can all too easily see it as an unacceptable blot on landscapes they love.

Elecman · 14 Jun 2025

satisnek said:
Does the Grade II listed brick-lined cutting with brick arch overbridges through Belper pose a problem for electrification north of Derby?

No different to Chorley Flying arches which were successfully dealt with during Euston to Manchester electrification some years ago

GRALISTAIR · 15 Jun 2025

Birmingham to Derby would be a fantastic infill. One less set of trains running on diesel out of Birmingham New Street.

The Ham · 15 Jun 2025

GRALISTAIR said:
Birmingham to Derby would be a fantastic infill. One less set of trains running on diesel out of Birmingham New Street.

Which in turn means that other lines become more viable to be electrified (or at least to become battery trains) further increasing the benefits.

43074 · 15 Jun 2025

JonathanH said:
Yes, but logically if Derby to Sheffield and the gaps between Birmingham and Bromsgrove were filled and electrification extended a bit further south, then Birmingham to Derby would be a natural gap not to do.

Birmingham to Derby becomes a logical piece of infill electrification in conjunction with MML between Derby and Nottingham/Sheffield as the Nottingham service could go over to EMUs, so with the XC Voyager services there are easily 4tph running under the wires there.

Makes more sense to use batteries for e.g. Bromsgrove to Cheltenham where the line speed is generally lower. Bigger problem with relying on batteries as seems to be NR's get out of jail card these days is that they will still need either existing power supplies to be boosted and/or additional sections of electrification for charging, neither of which are being done yet.

Bald Rick · 15 Jun 2025

duffield said:
Of course, this would need Four Oaks infrastructure improvements (probably four through platforms, but it looks like there's room) and maybe other enhancements, and may well not be financially viable, plus it might well be too fragile to timetable around the stoppers like that in practice.

It elidl also slow down the journeys for passengers on the cross city servcies from intermediate statsions north of Four Oaks by 6 minutes, which would weigh heavily on the business case.

duffield · 15 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
It elidl also slow down the journeys for passengers on the cross city servcies from intermediate statsions north of Four Oaks by 6 minutes, which would weigh heavily on the business case.

It's not ideal but with the right arrangement they could do a quick same platform island change to the "fast" service at Four Oaks, and actually get to Birmingham New Street quicker than at present.

Bald Rick · 15 Jun 2025

duffield said:
It's not ideal but with the right arrangement they could do a quick same platform island change to the "fast" service at Four Oaks, and actually get to Birmingham New Street quicker than at present.

That‘s a hiding to nothing! Those connections could not be advertised.

duffield · 15 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
That‘s a hiding to nothing! Those connections could not be advertised.

Why not? They'd be guaranteed to work (if it was on the same platform island), since the fast service is following the slow service and literally can't platform until at least a couple of minutes after it.

Bald Rick · 15 Jun 2025

duffield said:
Why not? They'd be guaranteed to work (if it was on the same platform island), since the fast service is following the slow service and literally can't platform until at least a couple of minutes after it.

Well it could be advertised, but would need to be 5 minutes to allow for passengers needing assistance.

duffield · 15 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
Well it could be advertised, but would need to be 5 minutes to allow for passengers needing assistance.

Given it's going to be 2-3 minutes between the slow service opening its doors at the platform and the fast service arriving and doing the same, and then the fast service is going to have a minute or two dwell time, that's about 4 minutes minimum already, so 5 minutes between the slow arriving and the fast departing seems quite reasonable.

Edit: Note I haven't looked at how any of this would work going out of Birmingham, and as per earlier post it's quite likely this might be too fragile to be operated reliably in practice.

satisnek · 15 Jun 2025

Elecman said:
No different to Chorley Flying arches which were successfully dealt with during Euston to Manchester electrification some years ago

I've just rewatched Don Coffey's account of the work carried out on the Chorley arches and would say that it's quite different. At Belper we're dealing with road bridges. But if enough clearance can be obtained by simply lowering the track then all's well.

Technologist · 15 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
Even with batteries, the highest speed sections will have the highest power draw, so would be the obvious place to provide wires, and the batteries could be saved for the <100mph parts.

A Tesla could quite easily make it between Birmingham and Derby at 125mph, a high speed train can do a lot better than that.

The line between Derby and Birmingham is ~66km, the spec for energy consumption for a 5 car IET on the ECML is 11.6kwh/km, this would mean a consumption of 760kwh on this line if it were run at ECML speed (which it isn't). If you converted the mass of the diesels and fuel on a 800 into battery you get abut 18.8 tonnes or ~2800kwh at end of life.

This all assumes that a class 800 is bleeding edge for aerodynamic efficiency, this is not really the case, there is so much equipment which could be faired in I'd estimate proper battery powered train would be ~20-30% slippier based on other high speed trains.

Zomboid · 15 Jun 2025

Technologist said:
A Tesla could quite easily make it between Birmingham and Derby at 125mph, a high speed train can do a lot better than that.

The line between Derby and Birmingham is ~66km, the spec for energy consumption for a 5 car IET on the ECML is 11.6kwh/km, this would mean a consumption of 760kwh on this line if it were run at ECML speed (which it isn't). If you converted the mass of the diesels and fuel on a 800 into battery you get abut 18.8 tonnes or ~2800kwh at end of life.

I wasn't suggesting that it couldn't do it, just that the highest power demand sections are the best place to put wires and save the batteries for lower demand places. And the power demand at 125 is high.

HSTEd · 15 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
I wasn't suggesting that it couldn't do it, just that the highest power demand sections are the best place to put wires and save the batteries for lower demand places. And the power demand at 125 is high.

The high demand sections, in aggregate, are probably fairly close to the places where the most trains run.

Which probably means Birmingham commuter electrification, if anything.

Zomboid · 15 Jun 2025

HSTEd said:
The high demand sections, in aggregate, are probably fairly close to the places where the most trains run.

Which probably means Birmingham commuter electrification, if anything.

That's a different type of demand. I was thinking of the demand on the single trains power source, whatever that may be.

Ignoring drag, kinetic energy =0.5 x mass x speed^2, so if accelerating a train to 100mph is the reference, you need 1.25^2 x as muchenergy to accelerate which is 1.56x as much.

So using wires for the highest speed sections will allow either smaller batteries or will save the charge for a longer run at a lower speed.

I think drag increases as the square of speed, too.

Technologist · 15 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
I wasn't suggesting that it couldn't do it, just that the highest power demand sections are the best place to put wires and save the batteries for lower demand places. And the power demand at 125 is high.

Logic for electrification in the new age of battery trains is more about distance from the wire than the rate of consumption on it's own. As the line is due to have electrification at both ends it likely will never make sense to electrify in a world where battery trains exist and will get progressively better over time driven as they are by automotive technology.

Bald Rick · 15 Jun 2025

Zomboid said:
And the power demand at 125 is high

Strictly speaking, the power demand at 125 is reasonable. The power demand to get to 125 is high. But either way, comfortably within the capability of current battery tech.

Zomboid · 16 Jun 2025

Bald Rick said:
Strictly speaking, the power demand at 125 is reasonable. The power demand to get to 125 is high. But either way, comfortably within the capability of current battery tech.

You need significantly more energy to overcome rolling and aerodynamic drag to maintain 125 compared to 100 as well.

Of course it could be done with batteries, all I'm saying is that the high energy consumption sections are where it's better to have wires compared to the lower consumption sections.

Nottingham59 · 16 Jun 2025

HSTEd said:
The high demand sections, in aggregate, are probably fairly close to the places where the most trains run.

Which probably means Birmingham commuter electrification, if anything.

It makes better financial sense to electrify Birmingham-Derby before continuing MML electrification north of Derby.

It would be better for XC if they ever get bimode traction, being mostly 125mph compared to 110mph to Chesterfield and 90mph after that. And would allow 2tph Birmingham-Nottingham to convert to pure EMU.

duffield · 16 Jun 2025

Nottingham59 said:
It makes better financial sense to electrify Birmingham-Derby before continuing MML electrification north of Derby.

It would be better for XC if they ever get bimode traction, being mostly 125mph compared to 110mph to Chesterfield and 90mph after that. And would allow 2tph Birmingham-Nottingham to convert to pure EMU.

On the other hand, completing electrification to Sheffield would firstly allow the 810 bi-modes to cascade (to XC quite possibly), and secondly if Sheffield station is wired, that means that Sheffield to Leeds (surely very high up the list for infill) becomes much easier, with Sheffield, Leeds, and half the route (Leeds to Moorthorpe) already done. Ideally though I'd like to see Derby-Birmingham done in parallel with Derby-Sheffield. These two sections together give you the entire MML, plus the whole route right through from Birmingham to Edinburgh.

380DC · 19 Jun 2025

DDB said:
Years and years ago before electrification was cancelled ago I went to a public information event in Belper which laid out the plans for it. So they had a solution then and I doubt anything will have changed.

IIRC it was track lowering for all except the most Northern bridge or two as they couldn't lower too close to the viaduct over a bidy of water just North of the town.

Belper is being redesigned in line with newer standards to reduce the requirement for track lowers

Any plans to electrify the line between Birmingham and Derby?

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