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Can GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard?

nw1

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It's a nice to have, but ultimately these trains need more seats, more luggage space - vs a buffet. Trolley all well and good, but not if the aisles are full of people!
Then again if the aisles are full of people clearly the trains need to be longer. You can have less-overcrowded trains and on-train catering... they've managed it in the past.

Whatever you define InterCity-standard travel as, it should not include full-to-bursting trains.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Then again if the aisles are full of people clearly the trains need to be longer. You can have less-overcrowded trains and on-train catering... they've managed it in the past.

It's clear XC does just need longer trains. TPE did for years, and now it has them there is largely no longer a problem.
 

Energy

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But since the DfT didn’t maintain intercity standards with GWR I doubt they will for XC either.
Civil servants move around; I wouldn't be surprised if many from the IEP era are no longer in the DfT.

Since TOCs have been under DfT instruction, we've seen the EMR 170 refurbishment, LNER CAF order, and XC 170 & (CGI currently) Voyager refurbishments; all of these have been reasonably good quality interiors.
Fine, but how is it going to be affordable, varied enough that there is something people want to buy, and reliable enough that people know they can buy on board? The maligned 'shop' on the XC Voyagers wasn't actually a badly presented format, but the railway still saw fit to remove it in favour of luggage racks.
From what I can tell, Arriva removed the shop to add a few more seats but discovered that wasn't possible.
It's clear XC does just need longer trains. TPE did for years, and now it has them there is largely no longer a problem.
TPE is a little easier since doubled-up 185s are a good size, while a double class 220 is much longer but only has 20 more seats than a TPE spec class 802.
43 6 car 324 seat voyagers [...]
I quite like this idea. If XC took on all 221s, they should be able to do 49 6-car sets (17 from 220s, 32 from 221s). This alone should be enough to cover Manchester - Bournemouth/Bristol, and Edinburgh to Plymouth, but Reading - Newcastle as well might be a stretch.

However, XC has limited scope to further increase capacity. 6 cars would give 280 standard seats, so it would solve XC's overcrowding, but would be back to overcrowding as soon as the passenger numbers grow.
 
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Halish Railway

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It's clear XC does just need longer trains. TPE did for years, and now it has them there is largely no longer a problem.
I think in the long term bi-mode and electric trains are a prerequisite for this. I can understand why the DfT wouldn’t be too keen on XC having all the Voyagers and Meridians, the fuel bill would be horrendous.

9 relatively agricultural engines as found on a 9 car Voyager formation transporting approximately 460 seated passengers from up to 125mph with frequent stops is very poor value for money.

Come to think of it I can’t think of anywhere on the XC network that doesn’t justify proper continuous electrification. Maybe Plymouth to Penzance could be a discontinuous scheme but that’s the only outlier I can think of.
 

vuzzeho

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Forgive me if I've asked this before (and forgive me if it's a stupid question), but why can't the Voyagers be refurbished into a higher density layout? Of course, the new refurb does not include that but... why couldn't it happen? If the issue with the Voyagers is that they're too low density, can't a large overhaul increase their capacity?
 

Bletchleyite

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Forgive me if I've asked this before (and forgive me if it's a stupid question), but why can't the Voyagers be refurbished into a higher density layout? Of course, the new refurb does not include that but... why couldn't it happen? If the issue with the Voyagers is that they're too low density, can't a large overhaul increase their capacity?

The seating areas are VERY high density. The problem is that only about 2/3 of the length of each vehicle is passenger accommodation.
 

robspaceman

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Recent arguments on this thread regarding limited capacity of both trains and track through brum and the WCML north of brum make think: why not send some longer distance SW-NW/Scotland XCs via Hereford? I think it’s a half hour time penalty that way (?) but if you’re going from Penzance to Glasgow you probably don’t care about a half hour here and there. In this way the longer distance travellers would be competing less with the west mids commuters for seats.

If suitable rolling stock were available of course.
 

JonathanH

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Recent arguments on this thread regarding limited capacity of both trains and track through brum and the WCML north of brum make think: why not send some longer distance SW-NW/Scotland XCs via Hereford?
A similar lack of capacity via Hereford really, and given there is already a London, Birmingham and Manchester train on the northern above Preston, which one gives way, and why?
 

Brubulus

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A similar lack of capacity via Hereford really, and given there is already a London, Birmingham and Manchester train on the northern above Preston, which one gives way, and why?
If our signalling industry became slightly less dysfunctional we could deliver a massive capacity boost via Hereford and lower operating costs. However its a ridiculous route for long distance XC services.

A way to reduce operating expense on an XC network with 43 6 car voyagers would be to remove an engine from each one. They would likely still be able to keep to time easily and it would be a reduction in both fuel and maintenance costs.
 

The Planner

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If our signalling industry became slightly less dysfunctional we could deliver a massive capacity boost via Hereford and lower operating costs. However its a ridiculous route for long distance XC services.

A way to reduce operating expense on an XC network with 43 6 car voyagers would be to remove an engine from each one. They would likely still be able to keep to time easily and it would be a reduction in both fuel and maintenance costs.
Its not dysfunctional, it just suffers from a near monopoly in that any competition tends just to be bought up.
 

irish_rail

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Forgive me if I've asked this before (and forgive me if it's a stupid question), but why can't the Voyagers be refurbished into a higher density layout? Of course, the new refurb does not include that but... why couldn't it happen? If the issue with the Voyagers is that they're too low density, can't a large overhaul increase their capacity?
The legroom is already pretty awful (away from the priority seating). Not quite sure you'd get many more seats in without having to turn passengers over 6ft away....
 

The Ham

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I quite like this idea. If XC took on all 221s, they should be able to do 49 6-car sets (17 from 220s, 32 from 221s).

Using only trains at XC it gives you:
34 * 4 coach 220's gives you 68 middle coaches so 17 sets when you divide by 4.
4 * 4 coach 221's gives you 8 middle coaches then plus
32 * 5 coaches gives you 96 for a total of 104 middle coaches so 26 sets when you divide by 4.

That's a total of 43 sets of 6 coaches using only those at XC.

The total of 49 is if you use the 6 spares and 2 at Grand Central, however these may or may not be available, so hadn't counted them.
 

NCT

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Disagree. The current Cross Country network has been around in a more or less recognisable form for decades. The NE-SW route has operated since the 19th century. The biggest difference is the implementation of a near-clockface timetable by Virgin, and that was over 20 years ago. Arguably the existing network is the result of a long rationalisation of a complex web of long distance cross-country services rather than stitching together shorter regional services.

Was it necessarily not lots of short distance services clumped up together those decades ago?

It's an absolute nightmare of conflicting priorities.

Exactly, and there's not much anyone can do about it, at least in the short term.

Almost every Cross Country service will go through at least one local peak at some point in the journey. That means being able to handle commuter crush loads.

In terms of catering, there are two traditional models:
- Shop - takes up far too much space for an operation that needs to handle multiple crush loads
- Trolley - no good if it can't get through
(I'm discounting the old school dining car as that's just for the birds)

Catering can be a loss leader to attract passengers, but when your services are routinely crush loaded you don't need that loss leader - to put it bluntly it's better all round to just sit on your laurels.

Vending machines *should* be given serious thought though.

Yes, in the longer term longer trains should help. That should make peak loadings manageable but I'm not sure you there can ever be a financially sustainable position where the trains don't carry standing passengers in the peaks. Again, my suspicion is the relative strength of the captive market (proportion of all passengers that do 2hr+ journeys) is nowhere near that of ICWC or ICEC. Also the rolling stock landscape is that the the next couple of decades of XC will be 5-cars joined together, and that works against trolley economics. Even with vending machines you have to wonder whether a significant proportion of 'posh' sandwiches etc would end up in the bin. I suspect the business model is one of drinks and snacks with long shelf lives. Maybe First Class can get some service if yields can be pushed up to cover the costs.

I don't think the nightmare could ever be over until some full HS2-scale infrastructure solution is delivered that allows the existing XC network to be split into 2 layers - HS2 services serving the long-distance markets, and fast regional services with 1/3 2/3 door rolling stock serving parallel classic lines with an unapologetically no-frills characteristic (think Dutch and Belgian). And even with HS2, I'd imagine Birmingham - Manchester/Sheffield/Leeds would operate as shuttles with minimal or no catering as the journey times will be so short. Catering would be for the London/Birmingham - Scotland/Newcastle services.
 

A S Leib

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And even with HS2, I'd imagine Birmingham - Manchester/Sheffield/Leeds would operate as shuttles with minimal or no catering as the journey times will be so short. Catering would be for the London/Birmingham - Scotland/Newcastle services.
With 2a and 2b, the only routes significantly longer than eighty minutes (I think currently the shortest route with catering beyond sandwiches; Euston to Birmingham?) would have been London and Birmingham to Newcastle and Edinburgh / Glasgow, and London to Lancaster (not sure if that would have had much catering given pairing with Liverpool services).
 

NCT

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In the distant captive vs classic compatible (CC) world, there seems to be an imperfect mapping of captive - short distance - no(/minimal) catering and CC - long-distance - with catering. This assumes Leeds is captive.

I suspect they wouldn't want to have 2 sub-fleets within the classic compatible fleet. Then London - Sheffield/Nottingham/Derby/Liverpool/Macclesfield could get a catering bonus (or just stock with the facility but rarely used).
 

Bletchleyite

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In the distant captive vs classic compatible (CC) world, there seems to be an imperfect mapping of captive - short distance - no(/minimal) catering and CC - long-distance - with catering. This assumes Leeds is captive.

I suspect they wouldn't want to have 2 sub-fleets within the classic compatible fleet. Then London - Sheffield/Nottingham/Derby/Liverpool/Macclesfield could get a catering bonus (or just stock with the facility but rarely used).

There won't be any HS2 captive stock in the lifetime of any user of this forum, I'd be pretty confident. Certainly not the lifetime of anyone on here over 30.
 

Bletchleyite

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Scan a ticket at the barriers juggling my walking stick, a packed lunch and a cup of hot coffee? **** that, i can drive and stop for a propee meal or take a coach.

You don't have a rucksack/shoulder bag or a reusable, closable cup? I think I'd invest in these things which would improve your experience no end. Plus, on many trains you'd need to struggle with those items back from the buffet on a moving train! And coaches have no food sold on board either.
 

NCT

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There won't be any HS2 captive stock in the lifetime of any user of this forum, I'd be pretty confident. Certainly not the lifetime of anyone on here over 30.

Then the reality is a mixed Cross Country operation that'll have to compromise to the lowest common denominator - peak crush loads.
 

Bletchleyite

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Then the reality is a mixed Cross Country operation that'll have to compromise to the lowest common denominator - peak crush loads.

I've said that before. An interior like that of the Class 185 with both wider seating with armrests, standbacks, big overheads and doors at thirds would be best for XC, not a long distance style unit. Just needs to be longer and probably capable of 125 unless you have a specific fleet for the ECML services or truncate them at Leeds/Newcastle.

One could argue that the "Javelin" EMUs aren't that far off what is needed to be honest - fast but a commuter like layout and doors at thirds.
 

AndrewE

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I've said that before. An interior like that of the Class 185 with both wider seating with armrests, standbacks, big overheads and doors at thirds would be best for XC, not a long distance style unit. Just needs to be longer and probably capable of 125 unless you have a specific fleet for the ECML services or truncate them at Leeds/Newcastle.

One could argue that the "Javelin" EMUs aren't that far off what is needed to be honest - fast but a commuter like layout and doors at thirds.
I disagree. Lots of XC traffic is genuinely IC-XC and they deserve limited-stop services in comfortable trains with adequate luggage space. It probably only gets packed with commuters because there isn't a proper next tier of trains below the long-distance ones.
 

Bletchleyite

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I disagree. Lots of XC traffic is genuinely IC-XC and they deserve limited-stop services in comfortable trains with adequate luggage space. It probably only gets packed with commuters because there isn't a proper next tier of trains below the long-distance ones.

I think you would struggle to do that without reducing XC back to the pre-2000 model of a few direct "named" trains from everywhere to everywhere each day. And I don't think that would be a good thing.

As it is, XC is basically similar to TPE but with higher loadings, and stock suitable to that is what should be procured. (To be honest I even question the 80x for TPE - something with doors at thirds would work better on the busy Leeds-Manchester bit).

FWIW the suggestion that end doors are a requirement for high comfort levels is just blind prejudice. The 185 has a nicer interior than the 802 in my book - certainly better seats - and the (also doors at thirds) Javelin units knock spots off both. Similarly, I find the Class 170 to be the best option for the Highland Mainline out of those on offer (and I bet that carries more genuine long distance passengers on its 4 hour ish trip than XC does), and indeed had XC originally ordered the same amount of money's worth of 170 vehicles (which would have meant a far bigger fleet with far more space-efficient interiors, even if you choose the low density, window aligned layout) rather than the custom design of the Voyager then most of the issues with regard to crowding just wouldn't have happened.
 
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HSTEd

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I disagree. Lots of XC traffic is genuinely IC-XC and they deserve limited-stop services in comfortable trains with adequate luggage space. It probably only gets packed with commuters because there isn't a proper next tier of trains below the long-distance ones.
Trying to enforce an artificial split of long distance and not long distance trains is unworkable though.

The network is simply far too heavily utilised for that.
 

43096

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I think you would struggle to do that without reducing XC back to the pre-2000 model of a few direct "named" trains from everywhere to everywhere each day. And I don't think that would be a good thing.
But the thing about the pre-2000 timetable was that the core routes had a basically hourly service of decent length (7-car) trains that had a much better seating capacity than the Voyagers on a per-vehicle basis: a 20m Mark 2F seated 64, which is all but identical capacity wise to a 23m Voyager vehicle and a 23m HST coach seated 76.

That timetable wasn't on a whim, it was what InterCity's customers wanted.
 

AndrewE

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I think you would struggle to do that without reducing XC back to the pre-2000 model of a few direct trains from everywhere to everywhere each day. And I don't think that would be a good thing.

As it is, XC is basically similar to TPE but with higher loadings, and stock suitable to that is what should be procured. (To be honest I even question the 80x for TPE - something with doors at thirds would work better on the busy Leeds-Manchester bit).
would you recommend that the long-distance trains from Euston should have that sort of stock because Milton Keynes commuters pack them out?
Again we have the provinces having to make do with one-size-fits-all stock so that their intercity services can provide for commuters, which would be inconceivable for the southeast. XC and TPE need to offer a lot more than crush-loaded commuter trains - and when the next tier is provided I would like to see (e.g.) lots more U and S stops so that problems like Brum to Wolves are removed.
 

Bletchleyite

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would you recommend that the long-distance trains from Euston should have that sort of stock because Milton Keynes commuters pack them out?

I would say that the Birmingham-Euston services are only Pendolinos because of who operates them, and that units with doors at quarters similar to the 730/2 would be perfectly suitable for those services. Manchester is in the middle somewhere. Glasgow fasts probably do merit classic IC style trains but that's only 1tph! However when the Pendolinos were ordered it was a single fleet and thus rather a compromise, and I don't even know if Alstom offered that design with doors at thirds or quarters.

To be honest I'd probably advocate 24m vehicles with doors at quarters for most of the network. They're just easier to board and alight and far less stressful to use, and they deal better with crowding when it inevitably occurs in disruption. Whether such a unit has a high quality feel depends entirely on seating and lighting.

Again we have the provinces having to make do with one-size-fits-all stock so that their intercity services can provide for commuters, which would be inconceivable for the southeast. XC and TPE need to offer a lot more than crush-loaded commuter trains - and when the next tier is provided I would like to see (e.g.) lots more U and S stops so that problems like Brum to Wolves are removed.

I think that by considering Brum-Wolves you're missing the point, and perhaps don't have much experience of using XC? Cov-Wolves really isn't the biggest problem on XC, yes, it does cause a bit of crowding, but it's only for about half an hour, and wider doors at quarters would help speed the considerable exchange of passengers along that corridor even where those passengers go long distance (the same way as multi-door buses significantly speed bus operation where your routes are cross city, much as most UK bus operators are too conservative to realise it). It's the medium distance commuter journeys which often have no alternatives (Brum<->Oxford, Brum<-> Derby and the likes) where this ability to deal with crowds would be of most benefit. You could provide those bits with commuter services and drop XC's frequency to a two hourly pattern solely serving long distance travellers, but it would be inferior to what is there now bar its inadequate capacity.
 

A S Leib

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would you recommend that the long-distance trains from Euston should have that sort of stock because Milton Keynes commuters pack them out?
Again we have the provinces having to make do with one-size-fits-all stock so that their intercity services can provide for commuters, which would be inconceivable for the southeast. XC and TPE need to offer a lot more than crush-loaded commuter trains - and when the next tier is provided I would like to see (e.g.) lots more U and S stops so that problems like Brum to Wolves are removed.
I think part of the problem is that a larger proportion of passengers on Avanti, LNER and intercity GWR and EMR services are typically going to / from London than they are to a single destination on a lot of CrossCountry and TransPennine Express flows, so there's a greater incentive to prioritise longer-distance passengers in the former case.
 

Zomboid

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Routes like London to Birmingham, Bristol and Nottingham (arguably Leeds and Manchester) aren't that long these days, and a service provision similar to Norwich and Bournemouth/ Weymouth would actually be appropriate. They get more deluxe trains because they're operated by operators with longer journeys and in order to deliver those journey times and fit in with other traffic they do need to travel at 125.

395 style units would be entirely appropriate.
 

NCT

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I disagree. Lots of XC traffic is genuinely IC-XC and they deserve limited-stop services in comfortable trains with adequate luggage space. It probably only gets packed with commuters because there isn't a proper next tier of trains below the long-distance ones.

There's no infrastructure for the separation of two markets.

would you recommend that the long-distance trains from Euston should have that sort of stock because Milton Keynes commuters pack them out?

Pre-Covid Milton Keynes was set-down only southbound in the morning peak and pick-up only northbound in the evening peak. The half hourly Northampton and peak extras did the commuting job.

Again we have the provinces having to make do with one-size-fits-all stock so that their intercity services can provide for commuters, which would be inconceivable for the southeast. XC and TPE need to offer a lot more than crush-loaded commuter trains - and when the next tier is provided I would like to see (e.g.) lots more U and S stops so that problems like Brum to Wolves are removed.

The moment you invoke the London vs the provinces is the moment you lose the argument, for that is the moment you let ideology overtake reality and your argument has no practical applicable value. Yes, the provinces have been dealt a poor infrastructure hand and until HS2 full Y (or equivalent) gets delivered that's the hand you have to play. On several flows Cross Country is the poor cousin to its true Intercity operators. If there becomes an overwhelming case for Macclesfield or Chester to be U and S stops then it's Avanti and EMR that gets the U and S stops and XC picks up the Cinderella role. That's how the money will need to work.

Given medium term infrastructure constraints, supporting regional labour markets is just as important as providing long-distance connectivity. In many ways compromise towards the short-distance market is the only way it'll work operationally (e.g. catering). I'd say Cross Country using inter-city end-door rolling stock is by far the most significant compromise towards the long-distance market, and from a purely apolitical social-welfare and financial efficiency maximising point of view I'm far from convinced that is the right decision.

EMR does have whole-hour non-stop runs between London and Leicester, and even London - Kettering is a decent amount of time. That said, given the churn I observe between Kettering and Nottingham and between Leicester and Sheffield, you do wonder whether in hindsight something close to a Class 395 layout would have been better.
 

Bletchleyite

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Pre-Covid Milton Keynes was set-down only southbound in the morning peak and pick-up only northbound in the evening peak. The half hourly Northampton and peak extras did the commuting job.

Point of order, no, it wasn't. There were a significant number of trains that stopped in the morning peak, the 0715 I think was the last but more or less everything stopped before that. Most MKC daily commuters travel around then because they mostly (unlike those using Thameslink or services south of the Thames) have a reasonable onward journey on arriving at Euston, so I'd reckon Avanti carried at least a third of MKC commuters southbound, possibly even a half. The 1843 off Euston (I think) also stopped to pick up and set down and this one was also very popular.

It was a lot more than a half hourly Northampton pre-COVID - the timetable had trains squashed in wherever they would fit, with the evening peak being completely off-pattern rather than having extras.
 

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