Looking solely at walk-up non-TOC restricted fares, London to Liverpool and Leeds seem to be quite similar (£358 vs £327 anytime return, £114 vs £147 off-peak). Manchester's particularly poor value given that it's a slightly shorter distance (although ten miles over 200 isn't a massive margin) and has the most capacity but is still £386 / £114.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Avanti London services from Liverpool Lime St
- Thread starter Chris217
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
FrontSideBus
Member
Every single time I do the Liverpool to London, I always go from Runcorn as it has a good car park and it's cheaper, even with the cost of the bridge.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
For as long as I can remember Liverpool and Manchester have had the same or very similar walk up fares (and those from Wigan and Warrington typically are similar). I suspect this avoids North West politics a bit. Obviously Advances can vary, so due to the high capacity sometimes a split travelling via Manchester is more economic than a direct service. Looks like the Manchester Anytime has crept up a bit though, which is probably why the Routeing Guide no longer allows Liverpool-London via Manchester on such tickets.
Not only does Runcorn have a massive car park but generally the drive to the station is very straightforward from the Wirral. Car park charges at the weekend are reasonable.
Chester can be stressful during rush hour and weekends, although early morning and late at night also very straightforward from the Wirral.
frodshamfella
Established Member
I've recently discovered you can pre book parking at Runcorn on the Avanti website, which makes it a bit cheaper.
I always use Runcorn for getting to London, Warrington BQ is a bit of nightmare .
I always use Runcorn for getting to London, Warrington BQ is a bit of nightmare .
185
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2010
- Messages
- 5,535
Agree. They've been absolutely full on many occasions with people stood. Terrible shortsightedness.
5 or 7 car trains have no place on the WCML south of Stafford. Even the West Mids stopper is going 240m 10-car.
Any excuse that it's "so they can stop at South Parkway" - Miserytravel/Rotheram/Transport for Kirkdale should either extend the platforms or demolish it.
As already mentioned, a seven-coach Evero has almost the same number of seats as a nine-coach Pendolino (and more standard class seating to boot), with the added advantage of being able to stop at South Parkway where platform extension is not possible due to a bridge on the north end and Allerton Junction on the south end, and where demolition would put passengers in the south at a disadvantage. The 807s were a much-needed compromise for an additional Liverpool service even if they aren't quite as nice as a Pendolino (and I'll be travelling on both very soon to compare them).
185
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2010
- Messages
- 5,535
London Trains
Member
- Joined
- 9 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 931
SDO could be used at Liverpool South Parkway with a theoretical 9-coach Evero.
No new units shorter than max length should have been allowed to be ordered for use on such a busy mainline which is nearly at full capacity.
Okay, you got me there. I checked Pacer capacity and even at it's lowest, six two coach units would match an 11-coach Pendolino. Thankfully the Evero wasn't built on a budget though, so even if I'd also rather travel on a Pendolino, it could be worse.Six 142s also probably do.
But I'd rather travel on a far more comfortable Pendo.
Maybe a nine-coach Evero could be made to match an eleven-coach Pendolino in terms of capacity, but it'd be quite a nightmare for passengers travelling in the rear of the train hoping to alight or get on at Liverpool South Parkway. If you're travelling in the seventh coach it'd be a bit annoying needing to board through the fifth coach and walk through two carriages with other passengers boarding and alighting. Now try to imagine walking through four coaches? Dwell times would be a nightmare.
Class15
Established Member
Which presumably means that people are more crammed-in with less space, so hardly a good thing? (Unless I’m missing something obvious!)
A lot of the time I see comments like this and it is worth saying that not everyone travels in standard class. Although most people (myself included) use standard, it is still reducing the overall capacity if you reduce first class seating.
Pendolino coach length 23m.
Evero coach length 26m.
Also internal layout at end of coaches on Pendos takes up a lot of space.
Better layout on Evero and coach length gives similar seat quantity with out cramming them in.
Class15
Established Member
Ah yes, I hadn’t thought of coach length. Thank you!
I don't know quite how it all works out, but the interior photos I've seen show them being pretty low density. Lots of tables and window alignment going on in standard class.
True, but I don't know how much of Liverpool traffic is business or affluent leisure passengers who can afford it. One common complaint I've heard with Pendolinos is how much of the train is First Class, at least pre-refurbishment, and more so in the case of nine-coach units. So with that in mind it's probably better to go with more Standard seats on a new unit at the expense of First Class seating. It might put First Class fares up, but those who travel in First Class usually don't have money as an obstacle at the time of booking or buying anyway, especially if their business pays for them.
London Trains
Member
- Joined
- 9 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 931
It certainly wouldn't be ideal, but ordering shorter trains, which is restricting capacity along the WCML due to the platform length at one very quiet* station is absolutely pathetic, and should have been totally disregarded when ordering new trains.
*in comparison to places served by Avanti, obviously it is not a very quiet station!
Also just come to be, the shop on a Pendo and the guard office, also take up a large space.
I believe the Evero shop is a lot small, similar to size of the LNER cafe bar.
It's not restricting capacity if it matches the shorter length InterCity trains already running. Indeed if all Pendolinos were extended to eleven-coaches I would somewhat understand, but even then it's hardly restricting capacity when it's still adding more seats to the overall route. Selective door operation at any station is hardly ideal in my opinion, even for just one coach at stations like Lea Green. Two coaches at Liverpool South Parkway is already a stretch, so trying to fill a nine-coach train with only five coaches opened would be impractical even if it were a pick-up only stop.
CEB24
Member
Like it's been mentioned earlier in the thread, as long as the seat is unreserved on the traffic light system, you can sit there. But some people prefer to sit specifically in the unreserved coaches just in case, when they have a ticket but not a seat booked. Here's the 'official' unreserved coach locations for Avanti West Coast:
PENDOLINO
You most certainly get on the train without a ticket, but it's just polite to let the Train Manager know beforehand. They won't have any issue whatsoever as long as you go and speak to them first.
PENDOLINO
- 9-car class 390: Coach C only
- 11-car class 390: Coaches C, U & G
- 5-car class 805: Coach C only
- 7-car class 807: Coach C only
- 10-car class 805 coupled-up: Coaches C and N
You most certainly get on the train without a ticket, but it's just polite to let the Train Manager know beforehand. They won't have any issue whatsoever as long as you go and speak to them first.There's a big kitchen at the first class end of a pendo isn't there? Not sure how much non-passenger space there is at the standard class end, but it's conceivable that it's more than on an 807.
This is very dangerous advice. It is an offence to board a train without a ticket, if there were ticketing facilities at your starting station.Hope this helps and/or is useful
Some TMs may be prepared to sell a ticket onboard but they would be entitled to charge the undiscounted Anytime single fare, which would be rather expensive for a lot of journeys that you'd be likely to make on Avanti.
If you encounter an RPI before you buy your ticket, you could have your details taken for potential prosecution.
CEB24
Member
Agreed, it is technically an offence but as long as you see the TM first, they won't have a problem. In fact, the Avanti Train Manager's tend to stand next to the barriers at London Euston to assist in this very thing. Quite common to have at least one passenger wishing to buy a ticket at the barriers, but at non-barrier stations like Liverpool Lime Street, they tend to seek out the TM first and then buy a ticket en-route to Runcorn. Should buy a ticket beforehand yes, but as long as you're not avoiding the TM, you won't have an issue.
Erm, a seven car Evero doesn't fit in Liverpool South Parkway either. And Pendolinos don't fit everywhere they currently stop anyway...
Talk about whether the train fits at Liverpool South Parkway is a red herring.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
If they reply they're unable to issue tickets today, and point out you're obligated to purchase a ticket before boarding, and you don't have time to walk to the ticket office and queue before departure, you'll miss the train. This is an entirely likely outcome at Liverpool. Why voluntarily risk missing the train for no advantage?
Why would you do this? Just buy a ticket in advance or via your own device if you are last minute. There's no advantage to this.
Last edited:
CEB24
Member
Some people are running late and don't fancy walking from platforms 9 or 10 over to the booking office. If the TM can't issue tickets due to a machine fault, yes they'd likely refuse entry to the train but you build-up an awareness of someone who's purposely not bought a ticket to try their luck, and those who have forgotten to buy/misplaced their ticket/something else and are more than happy to purchase one early in the journey. No advantage but you know what passengers can be like.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 15,098
Quite. Thought we were talking about getting onboard a Euston bound Avanti train which starts from Liverpool Lime Street without holding a supposedly "compulsory" reservation. Must be any number of intermediate stations on that run that Avanti trains don't call at, or wouldn't fit alongside, if indeed they ever had to.