Penalty Fare

xjn47 · 12 Jan 2012

Today I was had a ticket from Rainham to Dartford however I needed to stay on to WoolWich Arsenal.

When I got to WWA I was made to pay £20 on the spot, I would of tried extending my ticket at Dartford as the RPI suggested, but yesterday when I tried to buy a different ticket. yesterday I was told my job centre discount c ard has. Been taken off the system so I could not buy this ticket from the ticket office.

I have seen members of this forum say you should not pay the £20 upfront but the person I was speaking to said I had to in order to show the company I tried to pay.

I had not come across a ticket inspector and I was told yesterday I can't buy job centre discounted tickets at the ticket office.

RailUK Forums

xjn47 · 12 Jan 2012

The different ticket I tried to buy was from Rainham ticket office. I was told job centre discounts had been removed from their system and the cheapest ticket he could sell would be the return I wanted but with a 16.25 railcard.

Clip · 12 Jan 2012

They havent ben taken off any system they have just been renamed from the 'New Deal' name that they were given before.

LexyBoy · 12 Jan 2012

xjn47 said:
Today I was had a ticket from Rainham to Dartford however I needed to stay on to WoolWich Arsenal.

You must hold a ticket valid for the full journey you are making before boarding a train, unless facilities to buy such a ticket are not available from your origin station.

Was the ticket office at Rainham open when you boarded? Did you attempt to extend your ticket there?

xjn47 said:
When I got to WWA I was made to pay £20 on the spot, I would of tried extending my ticket at Dartford as the RPI suggested, but yesterday when I tried to buy a different ticket. yesterday I was told my job centre discount c ard has. Been taken off the system so I could not buy this ticket from the ticket office.

Did you attempt to buy a ticket from Dartford to Woolwich on this occasion?

If not, or if there was no facility or attempt to do so at Rainham, then I'm afraid to say that the PF was correctly issued in my view.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "taken off the system" (and I don't know how the jobcentre discount card works). Most discounts simply require a valid card (e.g. Railcard), which is not cross-checked.

Is it a Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount card? This is quite new so maybe they don't know how to issue tickets with it. If it's a New Deal Railcard, then I believe these are being phased out (?).

xjn47 said:
I have seen members of this forum say you should not pay the £20 upfront but the person I was speaking to said I had to in order to show the company I tried to pay.

You must pay at least the fare due; the remainder can be paid later.

xjn47 said:
I had not come across a ticket inspector and I was told yesterday I can't buy job centre discounted tickets at the ticket office.

The ticket inspector part is irrelevant, as you should buy tickets before boarding whenever possible. Hopefully someone else can advise on the discount issue, as a ticket office should certainly be able to do so (where else?!), provided the discount card is valid for the journey being made.

LexyBoy · 12 Jan 2012

xjn47 said:
The different ticket I tried to buy was from Rainham ticket office. I was told job centre discounts had been removed from their system and the cheapest ticket he could sell would be the return I wanted but with a 16.25 railcard.

It definitely shows up on National Rail Enquiries, 50% discount as you'd expect. Can't see why they'd be unable to find the discounted ticket.

If they were offering to sell the 16-25 ticket then that's terrible advice (unless you hold a 16-25 Railcard of course) and would have landed you with a PF anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

34D said:
Other forum members are much more knowledgable here, however I didn't think you could get a PF for being off-route. Hopefully someone else will advise whether your ticket is valid via Swanley (I doubt it).

I'd consider it so unlikely that I'm not bothering to check.

Even if it were valid, the OP says they "stayed on the train", so claiming that they had taken an alternative route involving travel via Woolwich would be lying.

MikeWh · 12 Jan 2012

xjn47 said:
I have seen members of this forum say you should not pay the £20 upfront but the person I was speaking to said I had to in order to show the company I tried to pay.

And that person was very wrong, but it's a story I hear all too often about SE RPIs. You only need to pay the fare due, the rest can be paid within 14 days IIRC.

swt_passenger · 12 Jan 2012

34D said:
Other forum members are much more knowledgable here, however I didn't think you could get a PF for being off-route. Hopefully someone else will advise whether your ticket is valid via Swanley (I doubt it).

It isn't 'off route' though, AFAICS it's a different journey. Being off route is if buying a ticket from A to B via C; and then travelling from A to B via D, where via D is a differently priced but valid route.

xjn47 · 12 Jan 2012

My actual route was Rainham [stn]RaI[/stn] to Woolwich Arsenal [stn]Wwa[/stn] changing at Gravesend [stn]grv[/stn]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There was a ticket office open at Rainham but did not know until approaching Dartford I would need to excess my ticket. As I said at Rainham they said job centre discounts had been removed from their system.

I thought it was ok to have at least part of the ticket you needed to make and then that can be used against buying a new ticket or excessing it.

Clip · 12 Jan 2012

xjn47 said:
My actual route was Rainham [stn]RaI[/stn] to Woolwich Arsenal [stn]Wwa[/stn] changing at Gravesend [stn]grv[/stn]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There was a ticket office open at Rainham but did not know until approaching Dartford I would need to excess my ticket. As I said at Rainham they said job centre discounts had been removed from their system.I thought it was ok to have at least part of the ticket you needed to make and then that can be used against buying a new ticket or excessing it.

Your first sentence contradicts your second.

If you didnt know you need to travel further then your ticket until you were approaching Dartford then how did you know that Rainham would not sell you the ticket excess you required? Or did you first ask at Rainham and then carried on regardless.

It has not been removed just a name change as the New Deal cards were phased out last year.

xjn47 · 12 Jan 2012

I knew they would not sell me the ticket as I attempted to buy another ticket there yesterday and was told it was removed from their machines.

Have just read my penalty fare form he handed me and it says the minimum you pay is the full single fare for the journey you have made why was I made to pay £20 and told that was the minimum.

LexyBoy · 12 Jan 2012

xjn47 said:
There was a ticket office open at Rainham but did not know until approaching Dartford I would need to excess my ticket. As I said at Rainham they said job centre discounts had been removed from their system.

I thought it was ok to have at least part of the ticket you needed to make and then that can be used against buying a new ticket or excessing it.

If you are not able to purchase a ticket for your full journey due to facilities being unavailable, then yes, you should buy a ticket for part of the journey which can be exchanged for the correct ticket later on.

However, if you change your mind en-route and wish to travel beyond the validity of your ticket, then you must buy a new ticket before overriding the validity of the ticket held, which in this case would mean at Gravesend or Dartford.

You may be able to make a claim based on the fact that you were told that you couldn't get a discounted fare when it is in fact available (and thus that the "full range of tickets" wasn't available to you). However, the fact that you were told this on a previous occasion, not when attempting to excess your ticket on the day, doesn't help this claim.

Clip · 12 Jan 2012

xjn47 said:
I knew they would not sell me the ticket as I attempted to buy another ticket there yesterday and was told it was removed from their machines.

Have just read my penalty fare form he handed me and it says the minimum you pay is the full single fare for the journey you have made why was I made to pay £20 and told that was the minimum.

Its twice the single fare or £20 which ever is the greater and in this instance for the journey you made outside your ticket then £20 is the appropriate fare.

So you didnt even try to purchase an extension to your ticket because the day before they said they couldnt sell you it? Fully deserved the PF then if you didnt even try to by the extension for full price and thus claim back the difference at another station/through Customer services imo.

LexyBoy · 12 Jan 2012

xjn47 said:
Have just read my penalty fare form he handed me and it says the minimum you pay is the full single fare for the journey you have made why was I made to pay £20 and told that was the minimum.

Because the RPI concerned didn't know the rules. This on its own is worth a complaint (separate from your other concerns, i.e. the claimed non-availability of Jobseekers discounted tickets).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clip said:
Its twice the single fare or £20 which ever is the greater and in this instance for the journey you made outside your ticket then £20 is the appropriate fare.

£20 is the minimum for the total PF; the minimum which must be paid on the day is the single fare for the journey made (the rest to be paid within 14 days).

Clip said:
So you didnt even try to purchase an extension to your ticket because the day before they said they couldnt sell you it? Fully deserved the PF then if you didnt even try to by the extension for full price and thus claim back the difference at another station/through Customer services imo.

So you think it's acceptable for passengers to be forced to buy a more expensive fare than the correct one and then to have to go to the trouble of writing in for a (possible) refund of the difference? Do you work for SWT perchance

?

I think it's the fact that xjn47 didn't attempt to extend their ticket on the day that makes the PF justified. If they had, and been told that the discount they're entitled to was not available, then travelling with a ticket covering only part of the journey may have been acceptable.

island · 12 Jan 2012

Clip said:
Its twice the single fare or £20 which ever is the greater and in this instance for the journey you made outside your ticket then £20 is the appropriate fare.

That's the amount of the penalty fare, yes. Only the full single fare for the journey being made needs to be paid on the spot. However, whatever amount is paid can be refunded in the event of a successful appeal.

The New Deal Photocard has now been taken off the system. All New Deal Photocards should be expired by the end of this month. Tickets should be issued with the Jobcentre Plus discount.

However, the posts by xjn47 are a bit unclear. Exactly what ticket did you hold? What railcard/photocard do you hold (exact card name as printed on the card)? What were you trying to excess your ticket to?

Clip · 12 Jan 2012

LexyBoy said:
£20 is the minimum for the total PF; the minimum which must be paid on the day is the single fare for the journey made (the rest to be paid within 14 days).

Which is what I said - if the OP didnt have a ticket at all then it wouldve been twice the single fare from Rainham which is greater then £20. Which is what the Penalty fare rules state.

LexyBoy said:
So you think it's acceptable for passengers to be forced to buy a more expensive fare than the correct one and then to have to go to the trouble of writing in for a (possible) refund of the difference? Do you work for SWT perchance ?

I think it's the fact that xjn47 didn't attempt to extend their ticket on the day that makes the PF justified. If they had, and been told that the discount they're entitled to was not available, then travelling with a ticket covering only part of the journey may have been acceptable.

No I don thtink its acceptable but the fact remains that on the day of travel the OP did not even try to purchase the extension at all whether at the discount or at a full price and thus is more deserving of the PF.

IF they had tried and been told the discount wasnt available then they may have had a case to argue but again,I wouldve paid the full price excess and then taken it up with SE themselves about their inability to sell me a ticket due to poor staff training.

And no I dont work for SWT.

LexyBoy · 12 Jan 2012

Clip said:
Which is what I said - if the OP didnt have a ticket at all then it wouldve been twice the single fare from Rainham which is greater then £20. Which is what the Penalty fare rules state.

I think the line on the PF form that xjn47 was referring to is talking about the minimum to be paid on the spot, which is only the fare for the journey made. They were told by the RPI that they must pay the full £20 on the spot.

£20 is correct for the full amount, as you say.

Clip said:
IF they had tried and been told the discount wasnt available then they may have had a case to argue but again,I wouldve paid the full price excess and then taken it up with SE themselves about their inability to sell me a ticket due to poor staff training.

I agree with this.

Paying the full fare is the easier option (and gives a better chance to lambast SE about the inability to get the fare desired), but you'd be within your rights not to. However, as no attempt to buy the fare before travelling beyond validity was made, I don't think there's a case to be made.

Clip · 12 Jan 2012

Looks like we're singing off the same hymn sheet but I guess saying it a different way round

JKJimar53 · 12 Jan 2012

Check your pf very carefully if the address is wrongly written down for example the town name is missing or put down as the county.
Street name written down wrong its invalid. IIRC.

Out of interest where is the penalty fare from would it be from Rainham to woolwich or Dartford to woolwich

xjn47 · 12 Jan 2012

Is this true

SF-02 · 12 Jan 2012

JKJimar53 said:
Check your pf very carefully if the address is wrongly written down for example the town name is missing or put down as the county.
Street name written down wrong its invalid. IIRC.

Out of interest where is the penalty fare from would it be from Rainham to woolwich or Dartford to woolwich

So what's to stop someone scribbling out a part of it and writing it elsewhere to claim it's invalid?

Clip · 12 Jan 2012

SF-02 said:
So what's to stop someone scribbling out a part of it and writing it elsewhere to claim it's invalid?

Well it wouldnt match with the guards counterfoil(?) copy of it so could easily be seen to have been tampered with.

Though Im not sure if such irregularties do make a PF invalid - Im sure a guard or RPI will be along to clarify this

hairyhandedfool · 12 Jan 2012

SF-02 said:
So what's to stop someone scribbling out a part of it and writing it elsewhere to claim it's invalid?

There will be a copy of it that the TOC has (how else could they prove a Penalty Fare had been given?), an attempt to change it could be proved and might land the person in even more trouble.

RJ · 12 Jan 2012

JKJimar53 said:
Check your pf very carefully if the address is wrongly written down for example the town name is missing or put down as the county.
Street name written down wrong its invalid. IIRC.

Out of interest where is the penalty fare from would it be from Rainham to woolwich or Dartford to woolwich

Bear in mind that a PFN can be cancelled and a prosecution initiated instead. I'd be wary of trying to get off on technicalities like this.

Solent&Wessex · 12 Jan 2012

I'm sorry if I have missed it, but EXACTLY what type of Railcard does the OP have?

The New Deal Card is no longer valid for discounts and will not be accepted. The Discount Codes associated with the New Deal Card have been removed from retail systems from the new year.

The Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card is now the only valid card. This uses a different discount code, although there was an overlap in time when the new card used the old codes.

If the OP still has a New Deal Card then the office is correct, it is no longer valid.

If the OP has a Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card then this is valid, but uses a different discount code. The booking office should be advised to read The Manual on the TIS, where the information is clearly given. In fact it is still currently on the front page.

The following is from The Manual, dated 5th January 2012:

The Manual said:
Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card (formerly New Deal card)

The former New Deal card was renamed the Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card from Tuesday 1 November 2011. New Deal cards should no longer be in circulation and must not be accepted for discounted travel.

Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card holders receive exactly the same discounts as the former New Deal card holders.

Applying the discount to tickets:
To apply the Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount please use discount code JCP.

Discount description on tickets:
Tickets discounted with the Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card will have JCP printed on the tickets. Only the Jobcentre Plus Discount Card should be accepted in support of this discount.

See the Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card listing under Railcards & Concessionary Travel for further details.

As regards a Penalty Fare, I would say it is correct to issue a penalty fare in this case as no excess fare had been obtained prior to travelling over distance.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:
18. If you travel further than a ticket allows
If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having
joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. The relevant parts
of Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey.

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel.

4. Penalty Fares
Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
(a) you travel in a train without a ticket or Permit to Travel; or
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid; or
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10,
11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply; or
(d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to
Travel

Now, if the OP had visited the ticket office at Rainham that morning, and had produced a Jobcentre Travel Discount Card, and had been told that they could not issue a ticket using that card then I would argue he was covered under condition 3. However, he didn't do this. The clerk that morning may have been different to the previous day, and may have known about the change. Or it might have been the same clerk who had looked it up later and now knew how to do it. There is no way of knowing.

island · 13 Jan 2012

JKJimar53 said:
Out of interest where is the penalty fare from would it be from Rainham to woolwich or Dartford to woolwich

The fare from Rainham Kent to Woolwich Arsenal is more than £10 I think, so the fact that the PF was £20 suggests it was from Dartford (correctly).

Penalty Fare

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