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IEP: 26 metres is too long

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jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1345417 said:
This discussion really is making you angry. If the people driving this project have got this wrong, and there are many reasons to suspect that they have, then you, as a user of the line are going to have to live with the consequences. The length issue is only one of several question marks over the IEP, and they have been widely discussed elsewhere. At the very least, passengers can expect to be confronted with a long period of teething troubles as these very complex trains settle down and the engineers learn how to deal with them.

You say that you have seen no work in progress relating to lateral clearance, but what sort of work would you expect to see as you travelled past? The work involved - realigning of tracks - would require a blockade, so you are not going to see it on your way in to work.

The original information was in a report, if I recall in Railway Gazette, that referred to various infrastructure works, including construction/modification of depots, and the figure was about £700 million. But I cannot find the reference now. However, the figure of £345 million for ECML which can be trusted is consistent with that overall cost. Whether you call it major depends on what you call major, but it would pay for a lot of trains, for instance.

You can be sure that if it had been possible to run larger vehicles on the system previously, it would have happened. GW got a tranche of oversized Networkers to make the best use of the loading gauge. If you think that running longer vehicles on a tight system is a simple matter, try the plate and ruler test. Get a dinner plate and a ruler, and plot the offset against the distance between where the ruler crosses the rim of the plate as you move the ruler in from the edge.

There seems to be uncertainty about the bogie spacing of these vehicles with various figures being quoted. The normal bogie spacing for a 26 metre vehicle is 20 metres or more ie as close as possible to the ends. There are good reasons for that. A spacing of 18.7 metres will give a similar centre throw to Eurostar, but anything less opens up another set of uncertainties. If, as someone has suggested, the spacing will be 17 metres on the IEP, the exepct, amongst other things, problems with on dynamic performance. The interaction at the interface between adjacent vehicles is critical to ride quality, as was discovered when the mark 4 stock first came into service. The greater the end overhang, the more the movement and stresses at the vehicle ends.

The almost 200 year history of engineering design on the railway is littered with failures. These have almost invariably come about when the designers have attempted to do something that was too different from what had been done previously. In some respects the railway environment is one of the harshest on the planet. Even small modifications can give rise to problems that seemingly pop out from nowhere. The way that IEP has been approached is a recipe for a failure of this kind.

The discussion isn't making me angry. You are.

You ignore things other people say - only the other day, after you claimed there would be endless teething troubles and that a period of test running would be needed, I noted that prototypes will be available two years or so before fleet introduction, so they might manage just that. But you have ignored this and repeated the same assertion. Never mind Hitachi's track record of reliability in Japan and right here, in the UK, with the introduction of the Class 395.

You make statements you cannot support - I think you know which one that is by now - and if work on lateral clearances was going on and required line closures, as The Ham says, passengers would be told about those closures, and the preparations/progress would be obvious from a passing train, like all the work on bridges is obvious as your pass along the line right now. Track engineers don't just set up on the night and then vanish again, especially on, er, "major" projects.

We have heard all this stuff before. Why don't you just write to Hitachi and ask them why they are unaware of all the terrible flaws in their train and see what they have to say? They might even be able to tell you where the bogies will be placed, or give you a plan, so you could get out your plate and ruler.
 
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RAGNARØKR

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£700 million is rather small fry when it comes to railway projects, especially if it includes the cost of the depots for the new trains. Given that the Northern Hub is costing £560 million and is mostly "light" infrastructure projects like electrifying lines as opposed to realigning track.
Yes, that tells you that it is still possible to get excellent value for money. From Network Rail's factsheet.
"Our plan to stimulate economic growth by upgrading the rail network of the North. It is about targeted investment to allow the region to continue to thrive. The project was funded in full in July 2012.

"The Northern Hub is about the whole North. The services and economic benefits run as far as Newcastle and Hull in the East to Chester and Liverpool in the West.

"The project will have the following economic benefits:
  • Over £4bn worth of wider economic benefits to the region and potentially 20,000 to 30,000 new jobs
  • An improved rail network will allow us to double the capacity of trains into the Trafford Park freight terminals
  • £4 boost to the economy for every £1 spent
Why would it have happened before? Why would BR build commuter trains that could only be used on intercity lines or build the IC125's longer than 23m when they didn't have the experience of running 23m long rolling stock and there wasn't quite such a need to use the most capacity of the lines?
The increase in capacity from longer vehicles is marginal. You gain the space between one or two vehicle ends. There are less bogies but more weight on each axle. 26 metres is nice to have if it can be done easily and properly.
You are partly true again, however there are also a lot of successes as well. Also there are some project like the APT is that a failure or a success?
APT came about when British Rail imported a team of engineers from the aerospace industry. As an experimental project it was a success. But the aim was to introduce these trains into fleet operation. Fortunately a group of old school BR engineers had their own ideas of pushing mature technology just a little and were not prevented from pursuing them. The result was the HST and still no-one has actually got an effective replacement into service. And the HST itself had its share of teething troubles which went on for years. As you say, on one had APT was a failure as no BR built trains used all the technology, on the other hand without it there would be no tilting trains, no IC125's and no IC225's as such were there were enough successes that it could be classed as an overall success?
If passenger services had be stopped as soon as there had been the first passenger death (clearly chalked up as a failure and fairly early in the process of passenger travel) then the railways would have gone the way of the canals a long time ago.

Likewise many of the other failures which have happened have caused lessons to be learnt and progress to be made and for the railways to be safer, more reliable and more attractive to passengers to use than the pioneers of the railways could have ever conceived.

If we relied on only ever building what was safe from any risk then we'd be running a railway which didn't look much different from that in the 60's, which appears to be what you would like it to be like.
Thanks, Ham, for this comment, it has been the opportunity to focus some thoughts on the matter.

The first 80 years of railways were dominated by steam power, which continued to play an important role until the 1950s. There was a steady development and a steady increase in power and performance, but attempts to move even marginally away from the mature technology of the time were a failure. Big steps such as the Atmospheric Railway were fiascos, as were major departures from the standard steam locomotive format eg the LMS "Fury", which lived up to its name, and the LNER locomotive 10000. Most improvements arose as a response to the deficiencies of the mature technology, resulting in steady evolutionary development.

Then came the introduction of electric traction from around 1900 onwards and that involved the application of robust mature technology and steady evolutionary progress, with DC or low frequency AC motors, although until the 1970s, the ride quality of power cars was awful. Electrification was given a boost by the development of improved systems of rectification including solid state devices, which made possible the introduction of 25kV /50 hz systems with reduced costs, and that paved the way for a second wave of electrification of main lines. Again the process was evolutionary and fairly trouble free. In more recent times we have seen the introduction of variable frequency 3-phase motors which have made innovations like distributed drive more feasible. There was nothing new about the concept but it took the development of power electronics to make them practicable. Again, this has been an evolutionary development with lots and lots of testing being done.

Internal combustion was another matter. Locomotives with marine diesels were built quite early in the twentieth century but high powered diesels designed for constant output direct to a propeller and are inherently ill-suited
to railway conditions. Direct drive is impossible and expensive electrical transmission systems are needed. As a result, the cost per horse power was five times that of a steam locomotive and for this reason they made little progress until the 1950s.

On the other hand, low powered underfloor internal combustion engines with mechanical transmission transferred quite well to the railway environment and were the basis of the fairly successful DMU programme initiated in the mid-1950s. I say "fairly successful" because the first generation DMUs provided an inferior passenger environment to the steam hauled trains which they replaced, suffering badly from noise and vibration. And in more recent times we have seen the use of the underfloor engined DMU stretched for high speed inter-city for which they are utterly unsuitable.

Apart from the DMU programme, the transition from steam to diesel in Britain was wasteful and troublesome. Few of the locomotive classes seem to have been really satisfactory and many were short-lived or needed expensive fleet modifications. The country is still living with the consequences today.

In the same period, the cost of rolling stock has increased from around £6000 per hauled vehicle in 1955 to £1 million today (some would say even more). Allow a generous factor of 40 for inflation and that is a real cost increase by a factor of 4. Now whatever else you might say about the latest trains, they are not four times as fast or four times as comfortable or four times anything else that is perceptible to the passenger. Nor are they four times easier to maintain. The might be four times safer but that is not a matter of cost but a result of putting the metal in the right place due to the use of FE analysis, and that was largely sorted out when the mark 3 bodyshell structure was developed. So it looks as if things have gone well past the point of diminishing returns.

What would the railway look like if things had gone the way I would have liked to have seen it go? In the first place, there was no intention in 1955 of getting rid of steam within a decade, as actually happened, very wastefully Thus electrification would have proceeded much faster, with both the ECML and WCML and the Midland being wired by the late 1970s, and the core GW routes following by the mid-1980s, after which the wires would have been extended to places like Aberdeen, Inverness and Plymouth by 2000, as well as linking routes such as Southampton-Bristol. Many of the Beeching closures would not have happened, including such routes as the Great Central and lines in southern England where there were already signs of development pressure.

Speeds would have crept up, mostly through incremental improvements to the infrastructure, however, probably not much above 110 mph. The aim would have been to provide a cost-effective service with affordable walk-on fares available outside the high peak times.

Such a railway is far from the one Britain actually ended up with.
 
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TGV

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I don't want to wade into what seems to be a long running debate that I've not fully been following but I read on page 7 of RAIL714 under the heading of Network Rail's "Major CP5 projects in England and Wales" the following:

"Intercity Express Programme (£365m). To upgrade the East Coast Main Line (including power supplies) to allow IEP trains to run from 2018..."

I may have missed the point in this length discussion, but if the above is relevant then I offer it for the debate.
 

AndyLandy

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I don't want to wade into what seems to be a long running debate that I've not fully been following but I read on page 7 of RAIL714 under the heading of Network Rail's "Major CP5 projects in England and Wales" the following:

"Intercity Express Programme (£365m). To upgrade the East Coast Main Line (including power supplies) to allow IEP trains to run from 2018..."

I may have missed the point in this length discussion, but if the above is relevant then I offer it for the debate.

I believe the number was mentioned previously, but I don't believe anyone has stated any specifics about what is entailed by these upgrades. Specifically, how much (if any) represents lateral clearance works for 26m vehicles, versus the other infrastructure upgrades required for IEP.
 

DXMachina

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RAGNARØKR;1345547 said:
The first 80 years of railways were dominated by steam power, which continued to play an important role until the 1950s. There was a steady development and a steady increase in power and performance, but attempts to move even marginally away from the mature technology of the time were a failure. Big steps such as the Atmospheric Railway were fiascos, as were major departures from the standard steam locomotive format eg the LMS "Fury", which lived up to its name, and the LNER locomotive 10000. Most improvements arose as a response to the deficiencies of the mature technology, resulting in steady evolutionary development.

Then came the introduction of electric traction from around 1900 onwards and that involved the application of robust mature technology and steady evolutionary progress, with DC or low frequency AC motors, although until the 1970s, the ride quality of power cars was awful. Electrification was given a boost by the development of improved systems of rectification including solid state devices, which made possible the introduction of 25kV /50 hz systems with reduced costs, and that paved the way for a second wave of electrification of main lines. Again the process was evolutionary and fairly trouble free. In more recent times we have seen the introduction of variable frequency 3-phase motors which have made innovations like distributed drive more feasible. There was nothing new about the concept but it took the development of power electronics to make them practicable. Again, this has been an evolutionary development with lots and lots of testing being done.

Internal combustion was another matter. Locomotives with marine diesels were built quite early in the twentieth century but high powered diesels designed for constant output direct to a propeller and are inherently ill-suited
to railway conditions. Direct drive is impossible and expensive electrical transmission systems are needed. As a result, the cost per horse power was five times that of a steam locomotive and for this reason they made little progress until the 1950s.

1) The atmospheric railway predated the maturity of steam locomotion, it was not an attempt to move away from it but an attempt to bypass it
2) Mercury Arc recifiers were a practical and common fit on AC electric locomotives long before the semiconductor era and were already showing it to be a significantly cheaper system than diesel
3) Deltics (EE D9000 series) used Marine diesels. the Napier deltic engine was developed in wartime for small ships, very successful in a rail context giving 20+ years of service

Do you actually know ANYTHING about what you are talking about?
 

HSTEd

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Indeed the last of the Hunt class minesweepers has yet to loose its Deltics (it is being replaced with a modern conventional MTU diesel, since 40 years of development has finally caught up with it)
 

Murph

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Indeed the last of the Hunt class minesweepers has yet to loose its Deltics (it is being replaced with a modern conventional MTU diesel, since 40 years of development has finally caught up with it)

Valentas & VP185s are also quite widely used in marine config, e.g. a pair of 12RPA200SZ (vs. the 12RP200L in the original Class 43 loco) in the Vanguard class subs (Trident missile defence), installed new between 1993 and 1999.

Fundamentally, there's nothing bad about using the same diesel power unit in both marine and loco environments, as long as they are properly adapted to each environment. Diesel-electric is also fairly popular for big marine applications, allowing ships to spin up/down as many units as are required for the current power load, taking individual units offline for servicing/repair while the ship continues underway, etc (e.g. QE2 only needs 7 of her 9 diesels for normal operation at max cruise speed). It also avoids constraints of space/positioning with a single huge diesel per prop shaft.
 

RAGNARØKR

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1) The atmospheric railway predated the maturity of steam locomotion, it was not an attempt to move away from it but an attempt to bypass it
2) Mercury Arc recifiers were a practical and common fit on AC electric locomotives long before the semiconductor era and were already showing it to be a significantly cheaper system than diesel
3) Deltics (EE D9000 series) used Marine diesels. the Napier deltic engine was developed in wartime for small ships, very successful in a rail context giving 20+ years of service

Do you actually know ANYTHING about what you are talking about?
Why do you ask the latter question? Are you sure you know as much as you think you know? As you say, mercury arc rectifiers are an old idea. I have actually got a small one, it looks like an old-fashioned radio valve with a blob of mercury inside. And AC electrification was around at the beginning of the 20th century. early on. It was considered for the London underground but rejected, and it is said that this was partly because Yerkes was from the USA and familiar with the DC/3rd rail systems. The 1909 Brighton line electrification was 6,600 Volt AC.

The system of AC electrification that became popular was 16 2/3 Hz 15kV, with rectifiers and transformers on the locomotives. This is the system in use in Germany, Sweden, Switzerland and Austria, amongst other places.

This equipment was heavy and is why 1500V or 3000V was widely used, eg in France and the Netherlands, Italy, Denmark, Spain, the USSR, India, the US, and by BR itself, where it was initially selected as a standard. I understand that, though this may be wrong, that the reason for the low frequency was because of the difficulties due to ripple currents in the motors available at that time.

By the 1950s solid state rectifiers were becoming possible and the Morecambe branch and three old LNWR electric trains were converted for an experiment with 50Hz supply. At least one of these trains was fitted with a germanium rectifier, but the metal is rare and they were expensive. This experiment, and another in France, were successful, and this paved the way for the large scale electrification of lines on the 25kV 50Hz system, initially around Lille in the late 1950s and the standardisation of the same system by British Railways, with 6.6kV being used initially where clearances were tight. (yes, clearances matter here too!). Solid state high power rectifiers became available soon after, and the 25kV 50Hz system became pretty much a world standard. A major benefit is that currents are lower and the OHLE can be much lighter. The old 1500V overhead on the GE was massive.

Testing was thorough and apart from a few serious glitches, such as occurred when the Glasgow electrification commenced, the then new system bedded down well. But the advantages are not so great that there has been any significant conversion of older systems to the standard.

As regards the Deltics. The prototype was delivered by English Electric around 1957 and underwent extensive testing but no orders resulted initially. Eventually it was realised that the Modernisation Scheme diesels were underpowered and could not adequately replace the largest steam locomotives. The WCML was by this time being electrified and soldiered on with class 40 diesels, which left the ECML in search of a solution. This resulted in an order for the fleet of 22 locomotives replacing 55 steam locomotives. They were dedicated to the high speed ECML services to Edinburgh, Newcastle and Leeds. With the locomotives came a supply of spare engines which could be removed quickly for servicing on the workbench, with a newly serviced engine being slotted in and the locomotive returned to service. There was a dedicated team of engineers looking after this fleet in a high intensity operation. An extraordinary effort was required to achieve the success you refer to.

The HSTs were a repeat of the use of marine diesels. There was endless trouble with the Valenta engines at first, due to "cycling" ie constant switching from idling to full power and back again, a situation which does not occur in the marine environment. You were probably not around when all this was going on but you can read all about it in old issues of Modern Railways. There were several years of modifications before the HSTs settled down and became reliable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why don't you just write to Hitachi and ask them why they are unaware of all the terrible flaws in their train and see what they have to say?
I would be surprised if there are not a lot of people at Hitachi who are scratching their heads right now about what they have got themselves into. It is significant that Alstom was not even interested in bidding for the IEP, and that the rivals Bombardier and Siemens had to get into bed together. That says everything about the original IEP specification.

Hitachi, on the other hand, has been have been jumping to the civil servant's tune so as to get into the European market. The people at DfT still appear to have a mystical faith in what the Japanese can do, on the basis of other people's grass. Japanese engineering is good but the laws of physics still apply.

The internal layout of the class 395 ended up as a right mess due to the modifications made to the trains on the DfT's instructions.

The class 395 trains have a high quality interior finish but if you have ridden on them trains you should have noticed how poor the ride quality is on ordinary ie non HST track. Or was when I last went on them in 2011. It might have been resolved by now but was the old problem of bogie hunting.

I would not even rule out the 100% fiasco scenario as occurred with the Danish IC4 and the British APT. Ancient trams from the 1960s are still in service in Gothenburg because the order was cancelled after half the fleet had been delivered. Alstom's strategy could turn yet out to be the winning one - at least they wasted no resources on the project.
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1346474 said:
The HSTs were a repeat of the use of marine diesels. There was endless trouble with the Valenta engines at first, due to "cycling" ie constant switching from idling to full power and back again, a situation which does not occur in the marine environment. You were probably not around when all this was going on but you can read all about it in old issues of Modern Railways. There were several years of modifications before the HSTs settled down and became reliable

RAGNARØKR;1346474 said:
I would not even rule out the 100% fiasco scenario as occurred with the Danish IC4 and the British APT

So you accept that the HSTs had a lot of problems initially, yet you criticise the 395s for not being perfect from day one (and are already salivating at the prospect of something going wrong with IEP)?

Biased?
 

jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1346474 said:
The HSTs were a repeat of the use of marine diesels. There was endless trouble with the Valenta engines at first, due to "cycling" ie constant switching from idling to full power and back again, a situation which does not occur in the marine environment. You were probably not around when all this was going on but you can read all about it in old issues of Modern Railways. There were several years of modifications before the HSTs settled down and became reliable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would be surprised if there are not a lot of people at Hitachi who are scratching their heads right now about what they have got themselves into. It is significant that Alstom was not even interested in bidding for the IEP, and that the rivals Bombardier and Siemens had to get into bed together. That says everything about the original IEP specification.

Hitachi, on the other hand, has been have been jumping to the civil servant's tune so as to get into the European market. The people at DfT still appear to have a mystical faith in what the Japanese can do, on the basis of other people's grass. Japanese engineering is good but the laws of physics still apply.

The internal layout of the class 395 ended up as a right mess due to the modifications made to the trains on the DfT's instructions.

The class 395 trains have a high quality interior finish but if you have ridden on them trains you should have noticed how poor the ride quality is on ordinary ie non HST track. Or was when I last went on them in 2011. It might have been resolved by now but was the old problem of bogie hunting.

I would not even rule out the 100% fiasco scenario as occurred with the Danish IC4 and the British APT. Ancient trams from the 1960s are still in service in Gothenburg because the order was cancelled after half the fleet had been delivered. Alstom's strategy could turn yet out to be the winning one - at least they wasted no resources on the project.

If you think sudden demands for full power do not occur in the marine environment, in fast patrol boats, where Deltics, Valentas and VP185s have been and are used, by the US Navy among others, you really ought to get out more, or are you too busy writing history lessons in a tone verging on the patronising at times? You've no idea of anyone's age here.

I well remember the problems with Valentas, thanks, which is why I have pointed out in the other IEP thread that while you and others think diesel locos off the wires are some instant cure-all, the Caterpillar engine in the Class 68 has not been subjected to the kind of cycling high-speed rail operation requires.

Instead of being surprised by what people at Hitachi might be doing, why don't you ask them what they are doing, as I suggested? Instead you go off on on attack on Hitachi. So the 395s' suspension has taken a lot of work. Alstom took several years to get the suspension on 180s right. Even after two or three years' use elsewhere, they could be downright awful to ride in at places on the Cotswold Line where jointed rail was still in use in 2004-5.

So Bombardier and Siemens "had to get into bed together" did they? All they were doing was continuing cooperation begun to build German ICEs. Get your facts right before you post.

The APT was not the fiasco you seem to think. It was put into service too soon. After that, it was kept running as a testbed for some years, achieving good levels of reliability, with much of that experience fed into the IC225 aka Class 91 and Mk4 coaches. The 91 is a clear descendant of the APT power car. The IC4 situation has everything to do with Ansaldo Breda, same as BM72 and Fyra, and proves nothing at all about IEP, so stop mentioning it.
 
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DXMachina

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RAGNARØKR;1346474 said:
Why do you ask the latter question?

A good rule for making any sort of statement on a public forum is to ensure that your level of knowledge exceeds your level of arrogance. Perhaps you didnt know this

I have observed you repeatedly making factually incorrect statements (No, not just unpopular opinions, I mean things which are provably untrue or incorrect) on this board numerous times. However, you are often corrected, provided with better information, proof, or context, and then a few days later go on to restate the untruths having made no reference or response at all to those trying to assist you

You have developed a credibility issue.
 

RAGNARØKR

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If you think sudden demands for full power do not occur in the marine environment, in fast patrol boats, where Deltics, Valentas and VP185s have been and are used, by the US Navy among others.
In the course of a day's work, how many times would a the engine on a fast patrol boat go from idling to full power? And what would be the same figure for an HST on the GWML?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With much of that experience fed into the IC225 aka Class 91 and Mk4 coaches. The 91 is a clear descendant of the APT power car.
Apart from the tilt.
 

jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1346679 said:
In the course of a day's work, how many times would a the engine on a fast patrol boat go from idling to full power? And what would be the same figure for an HST on the GWML?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Apart from the tilt.

Well that might depend on what situation the patrol boat finds itself in mightn't it? The fact is that it's no coincidence that over many years now, railways and navies have turned to the same types of diesel engine.

And thanks for the utterly patronising bit about tilt.
 

RAGNARØKR

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A good rule for making any sort of statement on a public forum is to ensure that your level of knowledge exceeds your level of arrogance. Perhaps you didnt know this

I have observed you repeatedly making factually incorrect statements (No, not just unpopular opinions, I mean things which are provably untrue or incorrect) on this board numerous times. However, you are often corrected, provided with better information, proof, or context, and then a few days later go on to restate the untruths having made no reference or response at all to those trying to assist you

You have developed a credibility issue.
The potted history was cited to support the case for a cautious evolutionary approach to design as opposed to ambitious leaps forward. I accept that the details can be contested - history is constantly being rewritten - but how is there a credibility issue about the general principle?
 

jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1346688 said:
The potted history was cited to support the case for a cautious evolutionary approach to design as opposed to ambitious leaps forward. I accept that the details can be contested - history is constantly being rewritten - but how is there a credibility issue about the general principle?

So are you going to admit you were quite wrong about the nature of the co-operation between Siemens and Bombardier on their IEP design?
 

RAGNARØKR

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Well that might depend on what situation the patrol boat finds itself in mightn't it? The fact is that it's no coincidence that over many years now, railways and navies have turned to the same types of diesel engine.

And thanks for the utterly patronising bit about tilt.
Are you saying that a marine diesel in the military applications you mention would get the same sort of constant hammering that the engines get in an HST, day in and day out?

I don't know about patronising but the whole point of the tilting train was, surely tilt? As an experimental project and testbed, the APT would have been an excellent thing. The things you mention were spin-off and not the aim of the project which was to get a fleet of trains into operation. On that criterion, it ended up as an expensive embarrassment. The mark 4 stock was, in my view, unfortunate. The BREL International provided a much better passenger environment but, as I understand it, Dr Prideaux didn't like it. The Chinese, apparently did, because, if I understand it correctly, BREL sold the Chinese a factory to build their version of the train at Changchung.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So are you going to admit you were quite wrong about the nature of the co-operation between Siemens and Bombardier on their IEP design?
That question cannot be answered without knowing whether they are competitors or collaborators? Given the bitterness of the response at Derby to the Thameslink order, it looks like competitors getting into bed. Or conversely, a falling-out. Or what? Who knows?
 
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swt_passenger

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I believe the number was mentioned previously, but I don't believe anyone has stated any specifics about what is entailed by these upgrades. Specifically, how much (if any) represents lateral clearance works for 26m vehicles, versus the other infrastructure upgrades required for IEP.

Something I just noticed in one of NR's publications, is that the cost of the infrastructure upgrades for ECML IEP is in the same ball park as the figure given for re-opening East West rail.

Interestingly, I don't recall seeing anyone suggesting that the EWR funding is paying for unnecessary 'significant infrastructure upgrades'. It seems to me that in the world of the railway these 'massive costs' don't actually get you much...
 

The Ham

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Something I just noticed in one of NR's publications, is that the cost of the infrastructure upgrades for ECML IEP is in the same ball park as the figure given for re-opening East West rail.

Interestingly, I don't recall seeing anyone suggesting that the EWR funding is paying for unnecessary 'significant infrastructure upgrades'. It seems to me that in the world of the railway these 'massive costs' don't actually get you much...

and the East West rail link is following a track bed that has a mothballed line on it, so very little in the way of engineering works will need to undertaken.

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RAGNARØKR;1347157 said:
So an extra bay, effectively? 8 more seats - 10% extra capacity. And someone is going to tell me I am being wildly inaccurate!

Within each central standard class carriage there will be 88 seats, with the 4 end compartments (between the doors and end of vehicle) being used as luggage racks, standard toilets, bike storage and a trolley storage.

In comparison a mark 3 has up to 78 seats per coach (so a difference of 10, so no you are not wildly inaccurate in your statement).

However where IEP comes into it's own, is that there are less doors, compartments between coaches, toilets, etc. than a normal mark 3 stock when compared to the total length of train.
 
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jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1346692 said:
Are you saying that a marine diesel in the military applications you mention would get the same sort of constant hammering that the engines get in an HST, day in and day out?

I don't know about patronising but the whole point of the tilting train was, surely tilt? As an experimental project and testbed, the APT would have been an excellent thing. The things you mention were spin-off and not the aim of the project which was to get a fleet of trains into operation. On that criterion, it ended up as an expensive embarrassment. The mark 4 stock was, in my view, unfortunate. The BREL International provided a much better passenger environment but, as I understand it, Dr Prideaux didn't like it. The Chinese, apparently did, because, if I understand it correctly, BREL sold the Chinese a factory to build their version of the train at Changchung.
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That question cannot be answered without knowing whether they are competitors or collaborators? Given the bitterness of the response at Derby to the Thameslink order, it looks like competitors getting into bed. Or conversely, a falling-out. Or what? Who knows?

I am well aware that a Class 91 does not tilt, whereas an APT power car did. So it looked a pretty patronising remark from where I'm sitting. As I have said at least twice now, I am old enough not to need your patronising history lessons, thanks. So the APT didn't come off? It was only ever built in APT-E and APT-P versions (a grand total of four trains). The research fed into the successful IC225. Unlike the IC4 you keep bringing up, where DSB has 50 or so of the things which don't work properly.

Of course an engine in a marine environment is not subjected to exactly the same cycle as an HST, but the sudden demand for lots of power in short bursts in a navy patrol boat is similar, which is why Deltics, Valentas, VP185s and big MTUs have been used for both naval and rail applications - they are proven to be able to handle both. The Caterpillar in the Class 68 isn't proven for high-speed rail use and I doubt DRS had a duty cycle anything like working the Cotswold Line in mind when they ordered them anyway.

The question about Bombardier and Siemens can't be answered? I already answered it.

Your post said
the rivals Bombardier and Siemens had to get into bed together

There was no compulsion whatever on them to "get into bed together". They have co-operated for many years building the ICE in Germany, they were doing the same when bidding for IEP. Bombardier has also worked with Talgo on AVE high-speed trains in Spain. Bombardier worked with Alstom to supply the Acela TGV derivative to the US and the RABDe 500 in Switzerland. Bombardier builds trailer cars for Alstom's TGVs for SNCF.

On other orders, the various firms choose instead to compete.
 

RAGNARØKR

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"Network Rail estimated in October 2012 that it would be spending £461 million on upgrades to the Great Western and East Coast Main Lines as part of the Inter City Express Programme. Much of this cost refers to power supply upgrades to the East Coast Main Line, with a smaller amount needed for platform extensions to accommodate the longer trains and an even smaller amount required for gauging work."

I am surprised at the low cost. It suggests that Network Rail are taking a more relaxed view of gauging than they were about fifteen years ago. This is likely to be because of increased control of the infrastructure which has made it possible to reduce tolerances. That there had been a degree of double counting of tolerances was explained in a lecture to IMechE by Bill Reeve when he was in charge of improving clearances for freight. Part of the freight gauge clearance programme was achieved by applying the principle.

I am sorry if people felt offended but it is a pity that nobody actually managed to shed any real light on the subject.

Whether it would have been better to fill up the extra space with wider vehicles rather than longer ones is another question.
 
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jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1350341 said:
"Network Rail estimated in October 2012 that it would be spending £461 million on upgrades to the Great Western and East Coast Main Lines as part of the Inter City Express Programme. Much of this cost refers to power supply upgrades to the East Coast Main Line, with a smaller amount needed for platform extensions to accommodate the longer trains and an even smaller amount required for gauging work."

I am surprised at the low cost. It suggests that Network Rail are taking a more relaxed view of gauging than they were about fifteen years ago. This is likely to be because of increased control of the infrastructure which has made it possible to reduce tolerances. That there had been a degree of double counting of tolerances was explained in a lecture to IMechE by Bill Reeve when he was in charge of improving clearances for freight. Part of the freight gauge clearance programme was achieved by applying the principle.

I am sorry if people felt offended but it is a pity that nobody actually managed to shed any real light on the subject.

Whether it would have been better to fill up the extra space with wider vehicles rather than longer ones is another question.

Is this the response from the Government via your MP, or some other source?
 

D365

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A power supply upgrade (ECML) is needed in any case with Thameslink (high-performance trains), IEP (more InterCity using the wire) and freight (in the future?).
 

The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1350341 said:
"Network Rail estimated in October 2012 that it would be spending £461 million on upgrades to the Great Western and East Coast Main Lines as part of the Inter City Express Programme. Much of this cost refers to power supply upgrades to the East Coast Main Line, with a smaller amount needed for platform extensions to accommodate the longer trains and an even smaller amount required for gauging work."

I am surprised at the low cost. It suggests that Network Rail are taking a more relaxed view of gauging than they were about fifteen years ago. This is likely to be because of increased control of the infrastructure which has made it possible to reduce tolerances. That there had been a degree of double counting of tolerances was explained in a lecture to IMechE by Bill Reeve when he was in charge of improving clearances for freight. Part of the freight gauge clearance programme was achieved by applying the principle.

I am sorry if people felt offended but it is a pity that nobody actually managed to shed any real light on the subject.

Whether it would have been better to fill up the extra space with wider vehicles rather than longer ones is another question.

Either NR are being more relaxed or (as many of have been saying all along) given the line is not the twisty turny route you think and there are not all that many places where there needs to be work.

Even if there double counting (because freight clearances have made it possible to have longer passenger coaches) the cost benefit of that would have solely been counted on the freight clearance budget. Which means in fact that the CBR of that project could now technically be increased as it means passenger trains which make better use of the network can also be used, as this wouldn't have been counted in the original calculation. Resulting in a better spend of taxpayer/fare money.

Wider vehicles would only be of any use if they were wide enough to increase capacity (i.e. 3+2, but at 2+2 seat widths), which is very doubtful as most of the line (being straight or nearly straight) would not have seen any more width clearance.
 

NSEFAN

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RAGNARØKR said:
"Network Rail estimated in October 2012 that it would be spending £461 million on upgrades to the Great Western and East Coast Main Lines as part of the Inter City Express Programme. Much of this cost refers to power supply upgrades to the East Coast Main Line, with a smaller amount needed for platform extensions to accommodate the longer trains and an even smaller amount required for gauging work."

I am surprised at the low cost. It suggests that Network Rail are taking a more relaxed view of gauging than they were about fifteen years ago. This is likely to be because of increased control of the infrastructure which has made it possible to reduce tolerances. That there had been a degree of double counting of tolerances was explained in a lecture to IMechE by Bill Reeve when he was in charge of improving clearances for freight. Part of the freight gauge clearance programme was achieved by applying the principle.

To be fair, the OHLE on the ECML has historically been a bit underpowered. Is it true that the NoL Eurostars prevented other trains from leaving Kings Cross at the same time? If issues like this still exist then I can see why Network Rail would want to upgrade the current installation.

Also, would this cost involve replacing some of the OHLE itself with sturdier equipment which isn't so easily torn down? As I understand it, the current wiring has a habit of getting entangled in the pantographs, resulting in the whole lot being pulled down during an incident.
 

HSTEd

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Also, would this cost involve replacing some of the OHLE itself with sturdier equipment which isn't so easily torn down? As I understand it, the current wiring has a habit of getting entangled in the pantographs, resulting in the whole lot being pulled down during an incident.

The low "strength" of the equipment is often overstated.
The equipment works properly the vast majority of the tiem and I have yet to see a report that conclusively determines that "sturdier" and far more expensive equipment would have been better value for money.

It delivered an electric railway for a pittance.
 

NSEFAN

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HSTEd said:
The low "strength" of the equipment is often overstated.
The equipment works properly the vast majority of the tiem and I have yet to see a report that conclusively determines that "sturdier" and far more expensive equipment would have been better value for money.

It delivered an electric railway for a pittance.

Fair enough. So most of the work would simply be about providing more power where it's needed?
 
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