Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

turboslug · 27 Feb 2015

jcollins said:
Anyone noticed the unusual Ellesmere Port requirement for a Ellesmere Port-Manchester service arriving at Victoria between 08:00 and 08:59 but the next direct Ellesmere Port-Manchester service not until after the evening peak and no services in the other direction!

the copy I have is for a Manchester to ellesmere port service departing Manchester between 17.00 & 17.59 also these trains will be extended to/from Bradford & leeds

there is also an early wbq - e port service to arrive in ellesmere port between & 06.30 & 07.29

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Greybeard33 · 27 Feb 2015

jcollins said:
Yes good news for the local lines. The only downside I can see is 3tph Manchester-Sheffield won't go ahead.

Another downside is that there is no mention of the Northern Hub proposals for additional peak services from Piccadilly to Glossop/Hadfield and Marple/Rose Hill.

daniel3982 · 27 Feb 2015

Those Manchester - Sheffield services are bursting at the seems. If they're not being increased to 3 x ph they really need to go 6 carriage.

darloscott · 27 Feb 2015

Having looked through the proposed timetables for Dec 2017 it is interesting to see some of the proposed requirements.
Earlier and later services are great to see, for example the last Newcastle-Middlesbrough service to depart 'no earlier than' 2230. 2330 for stations to Hartlepool. Currently the last weekday service is the 2118. The requirement for a no earlier than 2345 service from Thornaby to Middlesbrough would presumably tie into this also.

Great to see later services on TPE from Manchester too, as well as a doubling of the Sunday frequency. I assume this is subject to change depending on the outcome of the electrification though as Scarborough/Middlesbrough are due to be removed from the network?

Starmill · 27 Feb 2015

crehld said:
I am astonished the Northern feels they have to have a formal policy for this - it should be part and parcel of the guard's role!

Northern in the Greater Manchester & Conurbation area has huge cultural issues with ticket checking. I place no blame for this on anyone because I don't know wjy it happens here and not elsewhere, but its just the fact. Ticket checks are rare. On Northern. People get the train instead of the bus because they know they have to pay on the bus. Some regulars already dont know there's a guard on the train. I hadn't heard about the 319 thing but it can only be a positive development!

lejog · 27 Feb 2015

61653 HTAFC said:
Lots to be positive about, but a few caveats...

The increase to 6tph on North TPE was always known to lead to the withdrawal of the HUD-MCV stopper and replacement with calls on the Hull/Selby TPE services. Am I right in my interpretation that this will also be the case East of Huddersfield?

Hourly services on the Penistone line on Sundays has to be welcomed, but no mention of Huddersfield to Leeds getting an increase, though this might be down to the changes mentioned above.

Is there likely to be a future for the Northern Leeds-Dewsbury-MCV service? If Batley is going to TPE there'll be less need for me to change at Dewsbury, so the West Riding pub will miss out!

"Fourteen services departing from Leeds to Hebden Bridge shall also call at Dewsbury" according to the Northern Service requirement tables for both 2017 & 2019 - extended in the evenings to around 9pm rather than the current 7pm. TPE seem to serve Batley and Ravensthorpe (!) while Northern serves Cottingley. Morley, Dewsbury and Mirfield are served by both.

M28361M · 27 Feb 2015

turboslug said:
the copy I have is for a Manchester to ellesmere port service departing Manchester between 17.00 & 17.59 also these trains will be extended to/from Bradford & leeds

there is also an early wbq - e port service to arrive in ellesmere port between & 06.30 & 07.29

I noticed that too. On paper that's a reduction in service from 4 trains a day to 2. In practice it's a positive change as the current timings between Ellesmere Port and Helsby are pretty useless. The proposed service pattern could be useful for a commuter in Ellesmere Port or Ince who works a 9-to-5 job in Manchester.

I actually suggested a retiming of the Ellesmere Port branch train in my response to the consultation, so... where do I claim my consultancy fee?

bunnahabhain · 27 Feb 2015

daniel3982 said:
Those Manchester - Sheffield services are bursting at the seems. If they're not being increased to 3 x ph they really need to go 6 carriage.

There is usually room to spare on EMT services provided you are happy to sit next to a stranger.

Viscount702 · 27 Feb 2015

IanXC said:
TPE have been operating a Liverpool to Newcastle service via this route since the Victoria services started - presumably withdrawing it would require closure of the route to passenger service and all that that entails!

Are you sure. Because as I read it the service operates via Ashburys and the line from Philips Park Junction is used for freight or ECS only and is not for passenger use.

185 · 27 Feb 2015

crehld said:
I am not trying to tarnish all Northern guards with the same brush, but there seems to be a sizeable minority who just sit in the back and don't come out except to open the doors.

Hardly surprising with the attitude from management. A scenario. 9pm. Your train, conductor.

1)You don't do tickets.

At worst you get told off, and spoken to in the naughty room.

or...

2)You go out and do tickets, some idiot runs amuck, and you intervene.

The company sack you for a plethora of things, blaming you for inciting the issue, breaching some policy you never heard of and it's *boom* gross misconduct.

*closes thermos and goes back to page 158 of 50 shades of Guard*

hairyhandedfool · 27 Feb 2015

jcollins said:
Anyone noticed the unusual Ellesmere Port requirement for a Ellesmere Port-Manchester service arriving at Victoria between 08:00 and 08:59 but the next direct Ellesmere Port-Manchester service not until after the evening peak and no services in the other direction!

I think it may be related to the Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay services. The ITT stipulates 1tph, and, although that is broadly true of the case now, three 'peak time' trains each way, each day, currently run Liverpool-Manchester Victoria instead. If it is intended to be 1tph all day, the Victoria runs would stop. Causing a reduction in capacity.

WatcherZero said:
Sorry I wasn't clear, wasn't a specific requirement to staff stations but that a train could not be scheduled to operate with a driver and no other staff on board without the facilities/customer service being available from stations instead.

Yes I get that, but ticketing facilities can be provided by TVMs and information by CIS, 'long line' PA and 'Help Points'. So where are the extra staff required?

LateThanNever · 27 Feb 2015

185 said:
Hardly surprising with the attitude from management. A scenario. 9pm. Your train, conductor.

1)You don't do tickets.

At worst you get told off, and spoken to in the naughty room.

or...

2)You go out and do tickets, some idiot runs amuck, and you intervene.

The company sack you for a plethora of things, blaming you for inciting the issue, breaching some policy you never heard of and it's *boom* gross misconduct.

*closes thermos and goes back to page 158 of 50 shades of Guard*

That was very,very amusing!
But in the end it is really unfortunate. The management are completely useless if this is the situation. I wonder if this is a problem with here today gone tomorrow franchising - or do those managers not get 'sacked'?

IanXC · 27 Feb 2015

Viscount702 said:
Are you sure. Because as I read it the service operates via Ashburys and the line from Philips Park Junction is used for freight or ECS only and is not for passenger use.

This is the service I was referring to:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62776/2015/02/27/advanced

30907 · 27 Feb 2015

Couple of observations:

1. Lancs-Skipton: no requirement for the early Skipton - Lancs train, thus reversing the split between RRNW and RRNE introduced at Sectorisation and perpetuated ever since: the line can now be worked from the Lancashire end.

2. Calder Valley: the fast service can omit Todmorden (OK, one tph can)

3. Esk Valley: requirement could be satisfied by starting back the 0718 Nunthorpe from Whitby at 0600. Won't make Alan Williams happy though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IanXC said:
This is the service I was referring to:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62776/2015/02/27/advanced

But that runs via Ashton not Guide Br.

hairyhandedfool · 27 Feb 2015

LateThanNever said:
That was very,very amusing!
But in the end it is really unfortunate. The management are completely useless if this is the situation. I wonder if this is a problem with here today gone tomorrow franchising - or do those managers not get 'sacked'?

That level of management stay, the upper management (MD, Directors, etc) change, and that means policies change with the wind.

Bevan Price · 27 Feb 2015

hairyhandedfool said:
I think it may be related to the Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay services. The ITT stipulates 1tph, and, although that is broadly true of the case now, three 'peak time' trains each way, each day, currently run Liverpool-Manchester Victoria instead. If it is intended to be 1tph all day, the Victoria runs would stop. Causing a reduction in capacity.

Very surprised that Liverpool - Warrington BQ is retained, considering the very low number of passengers using the Earlestown - Warrington section.

Also, have I misunderstood, or is it proposed that the Lime St. - Manchester Airport via Chat Moss service is suggested as calling all stations between Liverpool & Manchester ?

LateThanNever · 27 Feb 2015

hairyhandedfool said:
That level of management stay, the upper management (MD, Directors, etc) change, and that means policies change with the wind.

Oh dear. That must make life exceedingly - well b****** - difficult, both for 'lower' management and staff. I can see why the unions get stroppy if the orders change all of a sudden. What a way to run a railway - as they say...

Greybeard33 · 27 Feb 2015

Senex said:
What is the reason for requiring a "parliamentary" service of at least one train in one direction a week from Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge via Phillips Park Jn and Guide Bridge?

IanXC said:
TPE have been operating a Liverpool to Newcastle service via this route since the Victoria services started - presumably withdrawing it would require closure of the route to passenger service and all that that entails!

Viscount702 said:
Are you sure. Because as I read it the service operates via Ashburys and the line from Philips Park Junction is used for freight or ECS only and is not for passenger use.

IanXC said:
This is the service I was referring to:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62776/2015/02/27/advanced

30907 said:
But that runs via Ashton not Guide Br.

A bit of confusion here! The Liverpool to Newcastle services mostly run via the Chat Moss and Victoria, using the direct line via Ashton between Miles Platting and Stalybridge. There is one service each way per day that runs via the CLC, Piccadilly, Ashburys and Guide Bridge. Neither of these routes traverse the Philips Park branch, which is used mainly for freight and ECS moves, including a TPE ECS from Liverpool to Ardwick via Victoria, reversing at Guide Bridge. However, this line also forms part of a possible diversionary route between Miles Platting and Stalybridge, via Ashburys and Guide Bridge.

I guess the requirement to run one passenger service a week over the Philips Park line ensures that Network Rail has to maintain it to the appropriate standard, as well as helping to refresh the TPE drivers' route knowledge?

IanXC · 27 Feb 2015

30907 said:
But that runs via Ashton not Guide Br.

Would help if I posted the correct link really :$

Try this one: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62778/2015/05/10/advanced

turboslug · 27 Feb 2015

Greybeard33 said:
A bit of confusion here! The Liverpool to Newcastle services mostly run via the Chat Moss and Victoria, using the direct line via Ashton between Miles Platting and Stalybridge. There is one service each way per day that runs via the CLC, Piccadilly, Ashburys and Guide Bridge. Neither of these routes traverse the Philips Park branch, which is used mainly for freight and ECS moves, including a TPE ECS from Liverpool to Ardwick via Victoria, reversing at Guide Bridge. However, this line also forms part of a possible diversionary route between Miles Platting and Stalybridge, via Ashburys and Guide Bridge.

I guess the requirement to run one passenger service a week over the Philips Park line ensures that Network Rail has to maintain it to the appropriate standard, as well as helping to refresh the TPE drivers' route knowledge?

Liverpool tpe conductors sign Philips park west jcn to ashburys as the 10.03 Liverpool to Newcastle on sundays is routed that way

158756 · 27 Feb 2015

Bevan Price said:
Very surprised that Liverpool - Warrington BQ is retained, considering the very low number of passengers using the Earlestown - Warrington section.

Also, have I misunderstood, or is it proposed that the Lime St. - Manchester Airport via Chat Moss service is suggested as calling all stations between Liverpool & Manchester ?

My reading of it was that the fast Airport service goes via Warrington, with TPE running 2 tph via Chat Moss, one picking up the Newton and St Helens Jn calls.
Not sure why the stopper would go to the Airport though. Perhaps to maintain the link to Piccadilly?
I.e. via Chat Moss: 1tph stopper(but for some reason to the Airport)
2tph fast/semi fast, both North TPE rather than one TPE and one Northern.
Via Warrington: Northern semi fast to Airport rather than TPE to Scarborough

Of course the bidders might spot some alternative with all the additional notes around the TSR.

WatcherZero · 27 Feb 2015

hairyhandedfool said:
Yes I get that, but ticketing facilities can be provided by TVMs and information by CIS, 'long line' PA and 'Help Points'. So where are the extra staff required?

Who is going to help those who need wheelchair ramps, or travel advice, or provide the reassuring presence the government believes is so important? What of those with limited vision. There are a multitude of situations for which a human interaction is required whether on the train or on the platform.

Darren R · 27 Feb 2015

I'm surprised that no-one has had anything to say about the requirement for Boxing Day trains. How is this going to work? Most train crew do not work Boxing Day, and (I'm assuming) there is no contractual obligation for them to do so, so how are the successful bidders going to find the drivers and guards to work these services? And what about all the other rail staff who will suddenly find themselves having to work Boxing Day too? It's not just TOC staff who will be affected, but Network Rail employees also. I think I would be pretty p****d off if I was a railway employee, or a family member.

WatcherZero · 27 Feb 2015

Lot of engineers already do. boxing day services happen in the rest of the country and there has been clamour for them locally. Staff contracts will have to be altered if they specifically exempt them, however the vast majority of the population do not have exemption from working on boxing day, the businesses they work for choose not to operate due to the quiet period. Will all those retail workers strike because they have to work boxing day?

Another point is bank holidays are not guarenteed holidays, rhey are suggested public holidays. You have no entitlement not to work unless your contract specifies it.

Darren R · 27 Feb 2015

WatcherZero said:
Lot of engineers already do. boxing day services happen in the rest of the country and there has been clamour for them locally. Staff contracts will have to be altered if they specifically exempt them, however the vast majority of the population do not have exemption from working on boxing day, the businesses they work for choose not to operate due to the quiet period. Will all those retail workers strike because they have to work boxing day?

Another point is bank holidays are not guarenteed holidays, rhey are suggested public holidays. You have no entitlement not to work unless your contract specifies it.

Well the engineers (oop't North anyway!) will be able to have Boxing Day off in future; if trains are running not as many of them will be needed! :lol:

The fact that Boxing Day working is compulsory in other jobs isn't really relevant to this though: if you start a new job working in (say) a shop and have to work December 26th, you can't really complain. However, if you've been working in a job for many years - a job in which you've never had to work Christmas Day or Boxing Day - and then suddenly you do have to work, well then you can complain!

Viscount702 · 27 Feb 2015

IanXC said:
This is the service I was referring to:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62776/2015/02/27/advanced

But that doesn't go via Guide Bridge. The franchise ITT requires one to go that way which as the original poster said was new.

Just noticed you posted the wrong link. In fact this seems to be a new service which runs Sunday's only and the correct link you posted earlier shows running from From December 2014. The point being this as far as Iam aware was a non passenger route but which now is.

IanXC · 27 Feb 2015

Viscount702 said:
But that doesn't go via Guide Bridge. The franchise ITT requires one to go that way which as the original poster said was new.

IanXC said:
Would help if I posted the correct link really :$

Try this one: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62778/2015/05/10/advanced

turboslug said:
Liverpool tpe conductors sign Philips park west jcn to ashburys as the 10.03 Liverpool to Newcastle on sundays is routed that way

Its relatively new, but its not new for the ITT.

Aictos · 27 Feb 2015

Emyr said:
Using the infamous curve?

Good to see direct Manchester services brought back to Blackburn and Accrington

nr758123 · 27 Feb 2015

If I have interpreted the spreadsheet correctly, the Huddersfield-Wakefield Westgate service will in future be Huddersfield-Kirkgate-Castleford.

Darren R · 27 Feb 2015

HLE 13 said:
Good to see direct Manchester services brought back to Blackburn and Accrington

I think you'll find Blackburn has had a direct service to Manchester for a while now! :lol:

Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

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