£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[Andyh82]

Roger French has written a blog about a suggestion that single fares could be capped at £2

https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/07/03/to-cap-it-all-a-2-limit/

Speculation is growing of an imminent announcement of a £2 cap on all bus fares throughout England to apply for six months from October as part of Government plans to help with the cost of living.

Such a plan has already been announced by West Yorkshire Combined Authority Mayor Tracey Brabin from September as part of an agreed plan with bus operators under their Enhanced Partnership arrangements and last week Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham, not wanting to be left behind, also jumped on the £2 bandwagon by announcing he was bringing forward a similar plan he’d had for next year under the franchising proposals to also commence in September, assuming a reimbursement deal can be agreed with operators.

Whereas it could work in urban areas, and it is already coming in this autumn in West Yorks, and already exists on the First app there, surely there needs to be an asterisk against that £2 excluding long distance services

£2 from Leeds to Scarborough on the Yorkshire Coastliner, or from Peterborough to Norwich on the Excel is clearly not viable. The worry being that Boris and the government, and indeed the Labour metro mayors wouldn’t really have such services on their radar as they will be focused on the big city urban networks

 

[F Great Eastern]

The trouble with a flat fare for all journeys like that, is on the rural journeys the number of gained passengers won't compensate for the lost revenue from the fare cuts. The end result will be services not being sustainable unless the government properly make up the difference and probably they are not going to do so.

This isn't going to be a problem with the urban routes, but the rural routes that only make a decent amount of money in morning peak and evening peak but carry mostly concessionary pass holders in between, the loss of valuable revenue from those could make the whole operation unviable of the route.

 

[RT4038]

The trouble with a flat fare for all journeys like that, is on the rural journeys the number of gained passengers won't compensate for the lost revenue from the fare cuts. The end result will be services not being sustainable unless the government properly make up the difference and probably they are not going to do so.

Quite - apart from this being a massive subsidy to rural areas, it will tempt bus companies to split up long routes and force longer distance passengers to buy multiple tickets. Needs to be something like 33 or 50% fare cut, minimum fare £2 or some such.

 

[Megafuss]

The trouble with a flat fare for all journeys like that, is on the rural journeys the number of gained passengers won't compensate for the lost revenue from the fare cuts. The end result will be services not being sustainable unless the government properly make up the difference and probably they are not going to do so.

This isn't going to be a problem with the urban routes, but the rural routes that only make a decent amount of money in morning peak and evening peak but carry mostly concessionary pass holders in between, the loss of valuable revenue from those could make the whole operation unviable of the route.

The reimbursement hasn't been worked out yet. I understand the whole thing is at a "consultation phase" for want of a better way of putting it. I think Mr French may have jumped the gun a bit......

 

[Wolfie]

Cue HMG taking the opportunity to insist on fares in London increasing to £2 no doubt.

 

[Ste37]

When first mooted in manchester regarding the bee network, in the consultation stages it was first proposed to be a £1.55 maximum fare.now its gone through to be supposedly starting in 2023 in wigan bolton and parts of salford the fare is now £2.

 

[johncrossley]

Cue HMG taking the opportunity to insist on fares in London increasing to £2 no doubt.

Are they planning to allow unlimited interchanges for an hour outside London? If not, that makes a massive difference. It would mean a different system in London compared to elsewhere, so no obligation on London to follow suit.

 

[158756]

The reimbursement hasn't been worked out yet. I understand the whole thing is at a "consultation phase" for want of a better way of putting it. I think Mr French may have jumped the gun a bit......

How would any reimbursement scheme work for this? A £2 fare for a journey of 1 mile is not going to need the same support as £2 for 20 miles. By distance? Based on the current fare (which would disproportionately benefit operators perceived to offer poor value for money)? Get it wrong and a lot of routes are going to disappear (though that'll probably be the result anyway because the scheme will almost certainly be underfunded).

The other pitfall I can see is that the introduction of these "cheap" single fares will be used as an excuse either to withdraw or raise the price of period tickets, through which many regular users already pay less than £2 per journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cue HMG taking the opportunity to insist on fares in London increasing to £2 no doubt.

Good.

 

[Wolfie]

Good.

Given your attitude l sincerely hope that your fares get at least a 20% rise

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given your attitude l sincerely hope that your fares get at least a 20% rise

I use buses in London and so would pay any such increase, but I think "levelling up" including levelling London down a bit to meet them would be incredibly politically powerful, not to mention meaning TfL could rein in the cuts a bit as the services would be more viable; Khan's insistence on fares freezes is simply nonsensical.

Moving on elsewhere, would this apply to the Oxford-Bedford X5, or would it be another reason to split it up more?

I think this should only apply to urban and other local fares (e.g. it would apply to a journey within Milton Keynes, but not if you were going onwards towards Bedford, say). And it should include connections within an hour as per London.

It might also need to apply in some way to rail, otherwise the rail subsidy will increase as passengers switch to bus.

 

[Wolfie]

I use buses in London and so would pay any such increase, but I think "levelling up" including levelling London down a bit to meet them would be incredibly politically powerful, not to mention meaning TfL could rein in the cuts a bit as the services would be more viable; Khan's insistence on fares freezes is simply nonsensical.

Moving on elsewhere, would this apply to the Oxford-Bedford X5, or would it be another reason to split it up more?

I think this should only apply to urban and other local fares (e.g. it would apply to a journey within Milton Keynes, but not if you were going onwards towards Bedford, say). And it should include connections within an hour as per London.

It might also need to apply in some way to rail, otherwise the rail subsidy will increase as passengers switch to bus.

As a London taxpayer your attitude sums up exactly why l say l would not, as someone who moved here from elsewhere further north, now wish to pay one pennypiece for levelling up. Stuff London paying for everything there and the rest of the country.

 

[GusB]

As a matter of interest, what's the furthest that one can travel on the London flat fare (£1.65, I believe)?

 

[Wolfie]

As a matter of interest, what's the furthest that one can travel on the London flat fare (£1.65, I believe)?

Hard, given the Hopper fare, to say for sure l suspect.

 

[johncrossley]

As a matter of interest, what's the furthest that one can travel on the London flat fare (£1.65, I believe)?

To maximise distance you would have to change onto a long distance bus just before the one hour time limit. So changing onto the X26 at either Heathrow or Croydon would be a good bet. Maybe if you got an X140 from Harrow to Heathrow, or maybe the X68 from Waterloo to Croydon (evening peak only) before the X26. I say Waterloo because the full route may be over the 1 hour limit and you need time to board the second bus before 62 minutes (you get 2 minutes grace) have elapsed after the first one. The X26 is only half hourly so you have to time it so you get a good connection. Trams are allowed too so maybe Wimbledon to Croydon then the X26. You might even have time to get a bus to Wimbledon before the tram.

 

[Wolfie]

To maximise distance you would have to change onto a long distance bus just before the one hour time limit. So changing onto the X26 at either Heathrow or Croydon would be a good bet. Maybe if you got an X140 from Harrow to Heathrow, or maybe the X68 from Waterloo to Croydon (evening peak only) before the X26. I say Waterloo because the full route may be over the 1 hour limit and you need time to board the second bus before 62 minutes (you get 2 minutes grace) have elapsed after the first one. The X26 is only half hourly so you have to time it so you get a good connection.

My understanding is that a Hopper fare is valid for 60mins plus a 2min margin in total. If someone was to follow your suggestion and was ticket inspected l believe that they would be facing enforcement action.

 

[johncrossley]

My understanding is that a Hopper fare is valid for 60mins plus a 2min margin in total. If someone was to follow your suggestion and was ticket inspected l believe that they would be facing enforcement action.

You are allowed to continue on the last bus even after 62 minutes after the first boarding. If you board another bus after that then you get charged another £1.65 (or less if a cap has been reached).

 

[GusB]

To maximise distance you would have to change onto a long distance bus just before the one hour time limit. So changing onto the X26 at either Heathrow or Croydon would be a good bet. Maybe if you got an X140 from Harrow to Heathrow, or maybe the X68 from Waterloo to Croydon (evening peak only) before the X26. I say Waterloo because the full route may be over the 1 hour limit and you need time to board the second bus before 62 minutes (you get 2 minutes grace) have elapsed after the first one. The X26 is only half hourly so you have to time it so you get a good connection. Trams are allowed too so maybe Wimbledon to Croydon then the X26. You might even have time to get a bus to Wimbledon before the tram.

Thank you. That's a distance, as the crow flies, of 8.82mi according to Google Maps, and I believe the hopper fare is still £1.65. That is an absolute bargain. £2 would still be a bargain compared to a similar journey in other parts of the country. I haven't bought a single ticket on my own local buses for a long time, but a single fare for the journey from my village to town, 7 miles or thereabouts, is £5.20. Now, it makes absolutely no sense for me to buy a single as I almost always make a return journey, but it just goes to show how imbalanced the country is.

 

[James H]

Geoff Marshall did a video on the longest journey you could make with a TfL hopper fare (but that was before the 70 minute limit was cut to 62):

 

[Simon75]

As a matter of interest, what's the furthest that one can travel on the London flat fare (£1.65, I believe)?

Travel on the N9 Trafalgar Square to Heathrow, (16 miles, ) you can pay £1.65
Where I live (Stoke-on-Trent) travelling 1 mile is £1.90 single

 

[Wolfie]

You are allowed to continue on the last bus even after 62 minutes after the first boarding. If you board another bus after that then you get charged another £1.65 (or less if a cap has been reached).

That isn't what TfL appear to have said in response to FOI questions (e.g FOI-0746-2122/GH). If you have a source for that in writing l'd really appreciate it.

Edited to add:

The TfL website says this which certainly does not agree with your statement:

"Pay as you go at adult rate on buses and trams and our Hopper fare gives you unlimited journeys for £1.65, made within one hour of touching in. Hopper fare also applies to discounted rate travel."

Bus and tram fares

Fares for travel on buses and trams in London

tfl.gov.uk

 

[James H]

The wording on the TfL site could be better, but they definitely don't expect you to get off the bus 62 minutes after your first tap-in.

So long as you have tapped in at the start of each bus journey, you have fulfilled your obligation as a passenger.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Moving on elsewhere, would this apply to the Oxford-Bedford X5, or would it be another reason to split it up more?

Difficult to say. It is worth pointing out that single fares on that route are much cheaper than they were a few years ago* but they're still much higher than £2.

On a route like that though, might there be latitude to have the £2 flat fare only apply on each registered route? I believe that the X5 is technically three services (Ox - Buckingham, Buck - MK, MK - Bedford) and if the fares were charged so that Oxford - Milton Keynes was £4 and Oxford - Bedford was £6, that might be a little more palatable for the operators (but harder to explain to passengers)!

*In 2019 I seem to recall a single from Oxford to MK being well over £10, whereas now it is £6.40; Oxford to Bedford has similarly fallen from about £14 to £10.

 

[johncrossley]

Thank you. That's a distance, as the crow flies, of 8.82mi according to Google Maps, and I believe the hopper fare is still £1.65. That is an absolute bargain. £2 would still be a bargain compared to a similar journey in other parts of the country. I haven't bought a single ticket on my own local buses for a long time, but a single fare for the journey from my village to town, 7 miles or thereabouts, is £5.20. Now, it makes absolutely no sense for me to buy a single as I almost always make a return journey, but it just goes to show how imbalanced the country is.

The bus only fare may be cheap, but overall transport in London is very expensive. If you change from a bus to a tube that is *really* expensive. Minimum £4.15 for any such journey including Zone 1. That might be possibly the most expensive in the world for the distance, comparing to other world cities. Taking the bus the whole way instead just takes too long and you shouldn't have to do that anyway if you have a properly integrated transport system.

 

[gc4946]

Certainly in West Yorkshire, a max £2 fare within the Metro area, would cause a steep jump on cross-boundary services with the possible exception of Greater Manchester.
Coastliner could impose pick-up/set-down conditions for passengers to/from Leeds - i.e. no local passengers carried between Leeds and the A1M/A64 junction?

 

[Ianigsy]

First in West Yorkshire moved to a £2 single fare a few months ago, but adjusted their ticket range so that a weekly ticket is £20 (the previous Leeds/Bradford/Halifax/Huddersfield only tickets were withdrawn at the same time).

At around the same time I started working one day a week at home, so it’s no longer worthwhile fo r me to buy a period ticket as I only need a single each way, so in a normal week I only pay £16 unless I know I’m going somewhere at the weekend. Quite a few of our local services are provided by Transdev so I tend to buy the £5.50 Metro ticket at the weekends instead anyway.

 

[GusB]

The bus only fare may be cheap, but overall transport in London is very expensive. If you change from a bus to a tube that is *really* expensive. Minimum £4.15 for any such journey including Zone 1. That might be possibly the most expensive in the world for the distance, comparing to other world cities. Taking the bus the whole way instead just takes too long and you shouldn't have to do that anyway if you have a properly integrated transport system.

That's fair enough, but the point I was making was that increasing the London flat fare to £2 from its current limit isn't really such a hardship when the rest of us pay far more.

 

[Wolfie]

The bus only fare may be cheap, but overall transport in London is very expensive. If you change from a bus to a tube that is *really* expensive. Minimum £4.15 for any such journey including Zone 1. That might be possibly the most expensive in the world for the distance, comparing to other world cities. Taking the bus the whole way instead just takes too long and you shouldn't have to do that anyway if you have a properly integrated transport system.

Now that l absolutely agree with. I understand TfL may have had concerns in the past about the tube being swamped but things are different now.

 

[johncrossley]

It would be unreasonable for tickets to expire when using smartcards as you don't have a printed record of your first boarding time. There are examples of tickets in other countries where you have to rebook at the time limit but those usually involve paper tickets stamped with the original boarding time. They also typically don't allow return journeys, which are allowed with the TfL bus fare. TfL has time limits for tube and train travel but the usual 'sanction' is an incomplete journey, which can usually be corrected after the event. For example if disruption meant you exceeded the maximum journey time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

*In 2019 I seem to recall a single from Oxford to MK being well over £10, whereas now it is £6.40; Oxford to Bedford has similarly fallen from about £14 to £10.

That is an absolute bargain. MK to Oxford is about 40 miles, so that is considerably cheaper than the fuel would be to go by car. £2/4/6 would seem a very generous fare structure for that route, FWIW. I wonder if the fare reduced to take into account the lower quality of vehicle now used?

Now that l absolutely agree with. I understand TfL may have had concerns in the past about the tube being swamped but things are different now.

I can see a case for the London approach to be to charge a Tube fare if connecting to a bus, but £2 would be for bus only journeys. Trouble is that would require tapping out. £1.65 is expensive as an add on in a supposedly integrated network but very low for a bus only fare.