15 minute cities the future?

[Citybreak1]

I read a lot about these plans not sure what it means some suggested the demolition of both shopping malls will mean 15 minute cities. My local town is instead making you book seats on buses in quiet areas so how will this work? Also they have a bike hire company which also went bust which had bikes in the town. So people here agree with these plans? I am sure I read some of the Dutch cities could become one possibly Rotterdam?

What Are 15-Minute Cities and Why Is Britain’s Conservative Party Suddenly Talking About Them?

An urban planning concept promoted by a French professor and later criticized by conspiracy theorists is now being demonized by the UK’s ruling party.

www.bloomberg.com

The term was initially coined in 2016 by Carlos Moreno, a professor at the Sorbonne in Paris, as a way of rethinking urban planning. In his original vision, nobody would be more than a short walk from essential services like doctors, shops or even their job. The idea had been adopted by several cities around the world, with the Mayor of Paris one of its most high-profile supporters, before the first conspiratorial posts began appearing in late 2022.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Citybreak1. Could you clarify what's a "15 minute city"?

 

[Citybreak1]

@Citybreak1. Could you clarify what's a "15 minute city"?

I believe it’s everything within 15 minutes of public transport doctors shops ect

 

[swt_passenger]

I read a lot about these plans not sure what it means some suggested the demolition of both shopping malls will mean 15 minute cities. My local town is instead making you book seats on buses in quiet areas so how will this work? Also they have a bike hire company which also went bust which had bikes in the town. So people here agree with these plans? I am sure I read some of the Dutch cities could become one possibly Rotterdam?

“Demolition of both shopping malls”? Is there something else you didn’t include?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Wondering whether @Citybreak1 is referring to how things are / might be in the Falkirk area of Scotland?

 

[yorkie]

I read a lot about these plans...

Can you provide a link to, and quote from, an example of such a plan?

not sure what it means some suggested the demolition of both shopping malls will mean 15 minute cities.

Is this something from a reputable source, or something a random person made up?

My local town is instead making you book seats on buses in quiet areas so how will this work?

Can you provide a link to, and quote from, the relevant website with the details, please?

Also they have a bike hire company which also went bust which had bikes in the town. So people here agree with these plans?

Can you elaborate on what plans we are potentially agreeing, or disagreeing with?

I am sure I read some of the Dutch cities could become one possibly Rotterdam?

Again we do require a link to, and quote from, the source please.

 

[Citybreak1]

Wondering whether @Citybreak1 is referring to how things are / might be in the Falkirk area of Scotland?

There is a plan to book seats on bus but I don’t think that encourages people back on public transport sadly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

Can you provide a link to, and quote from, an example of such a plan?

Is this something from a reputable source, or something a random person made up?

Can you provide a link to, and quote from, the relevant website with the details, please?

Can you elaborate on what plans we are potentially agreeing, or disagreeing with?

Again we do require a link to, and quote from, the source please.

I have edited it with a link above thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

And the question is if you agree with idea of 15 minute cities concept?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

Glasgow

Major Glasgow shopping centre to be demolished - BBC News

The St Enoch Centre will be replaced with a development including shops, offices and homes.

www.bbc.co.uk

A major Glasgow shopping centre will be demolished and redeveloped, under plans approved by the city council.
It will see the St Enoch Centre knocked down and replaced with a development including shops, offices, restaurants and homes.

 

[yorkie]

Who wouldn't agree with the concept of having local amenities within 15 minutes of any part of a city?

(The only people I can think of are people who want to increase car ownership, or people who want to claim there are proposals to prohibit people from using shops and other amenities that aren't nearby, which is a very strange idea for anyone to have).

As for St Enoch, I don't know enough about the current or future development to comment on that specifically.

 

[etr221]

It's actually the '15 minute neighbourhood', and is the concept that the facilities you need on a daily basis (or even more often) - local shops, doctor, community centre, pub, park, school, etc. - should be within about 15 minutes, ideally on foot or by bike; also in that radius access to public transport for going further. Various YouTube videos on the concept - use the search facility to find out more. Where they get contentious is the emphasis on 'by foot', and imposing restrictions on motor traffic, as part of their implementation: in many ways they are easy and seen as natural if built that way. But imposing them on an existing urban area and community is not easy.

My own thought is that - at least to some extent - they are how we do live, but with less car use, and fewer or downgraded roads. And perhaps their complement are the 30-minute town, and the 60-minute city. Perhaps defined by the times we - or should I say I - expect, as residents, to take to get to the facilities of those sorts of places. But perhaps to be seen as a reaction to the dominance of the out of town shopping malls, etc., dominated by car parks.

 

[DarloRich]

Who wouldn't agree with the concept of having local amenities within 15 minutes of any part of a city?

exactly! sounds great to me.

My local town is instead making you book seats on buses in quiet areas so how will this work?

MAKING. Are you sure about that? We have similar service in MK but it doesn't replace the Arriva bus service. It is called MK Connect: https://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/highways/bus-rail-and-taxis/mk-connect

it works very well and is a very reasonable price. You can travel for many minutes more than 15.

MK Connect is the biggest transport project of its type in the UK. We introduced MK Connect as an affordable service for people who are not served by a bus route, or for when other choices like cycling are not an option.

You can book an MK Connect vehicle when you’re ready to travel, and unlike an immediate door-to-door taxi you may be sharing it with other people heading the same way. There will likely be a short wait just like at a bus stop. Most people wait around half an hour, though it can be longer.

Also they have a bike hire company which also went bust which had bikes in the town

We have that in MK also as do many cities - I am not sure what point you are making here.

I have edited it with a link above thanks

I don't think this suggested redevelopment of Buchannan street is anything to do with 15 minute cities. I think one should be very careful not to fall down a conspiracy rabbit hole.

 

[Citybreak1]

exactly! sounds great to me.


MAKING. Are you sure about that? We have similar service in MK but it doesn't replace the Arriva bus service. It is called MK Connect: https://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/highways/bus-rail-and-taxis/mk-connect

it works very well and is a very reasonable price. You can travel for many minutes more than 15.




We have that in MK also as do many cities - I am not sure what point you are making here.


I don't think this suggested redevelopment of Buchannan street is anything to do with 15 minute cities. I think one should be very careful not to fall down a conspiracy rabbit hole.

Thanks I do think there is a demand for housing on the high street though. Everything comes with leisure or housing these days. Gone the day of retail only malls.

 

[DarloRich]

Everything comes with leisure or housing these days. Gone the day of retail only malls.

good! Much better to have people living in city centres in good quality accommodation where they can reach good quality services easily. We cant build on the green belt after all...............

 

[Sorcerer]

I think 15 minute cities when defined as urban planning to provide essential goods and services like shops, libraries and schools etc within a 15 minute walking range are a great idea, and it's a great shame and embarrassment that they have become the subject of right-wing conspiracy theories because walkability is tyranny while being car-locked is freedom apparently. In fact I would argue that 15 minute cities are not a new idea, but rather a roughly 7000 year old idea going as far back as Mesopotamia and other ancient civilisations. At the very least they are how old European cities were constructed. So never mind the future, they are also the past, and in some areas the present.

 

[Gloster]

There doesn’t really seem to be a clear idea what ‘15 minute city’ means, although various ideas that have been kicked around have been included at the whim of different players. Unfortunately a political party that shall remain nameless has decided that to claim that it, whatever it may be, is all part of Labour’s war on the motorist.

 

[Citybreak1]

There doesn’t really seem to be a clear idea what ‘15 minute city’ means, although various ideas that have been kicked around have been included at the whim of different players. Unfortunately a political party that shall remain nameless has decided that to claim that it, whatever it may be, is all part of Labour’s war on the motorist.

I wonder how driverless cars will affect things?

 

[yorkie]

I wonder how driverless cars will affect things?

We have had plenty of threads about the subject.

Search results for query: Driverless

 

[Acfb]

I think 15 minute cities are a good idea and I'm all for encouraging people to walk and get the bus around/into town etc instead of driving with proper urban planning ( even though I find the cycle lobby somewhat irritating).

Having said that it seems to mainly apply to cities. At the same time there is a weird trend of drive through coffee outlets appearing in lots of suburban areas/semi rural towns which would appear to go against the principles of sustainability.

 

[philosopher]

I think 15 minute cities are a good idea and I'm all for encouraging people to walk and get the bus around/into town etc instead of driving with proper urban planning ( even though I find the cycle lobby somewhat irritating).

Having said that it seems to mainly apply to cities. At the same time there is a weird trend of drive through coffee outlets appearing in lots of suburban areas/semi rural towns which would appear to go against the principles of sustainability.

In some ways I think we have gone backwards in progress towards 15 minute cities in the past few years. Since the pandemic, retail for example seems to have recovered far better on out of town retail parks than it has in town or city centres. Marks and Spencers a few months ago for example said they were focusing their growth on out of town locations.

 

[al78]

good! Much better to have people living in city centres in good quality accommodation where they can reach good quality services easily. We cant build on the green belt after all...............

Although such accommodation tends to be very expensive and likely priced out of range of the majority. City center, good quality, affordable, choose two.

 

[DarloRich]

Although such accommodation tends to be very expensive and likely priced out of range of the majority. City center, good quality, affordable, choose two.

Outside of London does that hold true?

 

[jon81uk]

I'm in the suburbs of a town and already in a 15 minutes neighbourhood really. Doctors and NHS dentist are 15 minute walk, full size supermarket and convenience store (with chip shop next door) are both 15 minutes away on foot (in opposite directions), town centre is 20 minutes walk, station with trains to London is 15 minutes walk. Whats missing is a bus service in case I did need to get to the other side of town, that involves 15 minute walk to get to a bus stop really. My location is more of an accident that all this is so accesible, but in my opinion more places should be designed so that primary school, doctor, dentist and a shop are all 15-20 minutes on foot.

 

[Acfb]

In some ways I think we have gone backwards in progress towards 15 minute cities in the past few years. Since the pandemic, retail for example seems to have recovered far better on out of town retail parks than it has in town or city centres. Marks and Spencers a few months ago for example said they were focusing their growth on out of town locations.

Yes, I can think of examples of this off the top of my head such as in Macclesfield (although I can see how the free parking at the new retail site up the road might be more convenient for people now). It's also sad what has happened to Buxton town centre which lost its M&S years ago and now has loads of empty shops with even charity shops closing down. I can understand why out of town sites have always been popular as well, for example I've usually used the Gyle M&S in contrast to the downtown Edinburgh one but cities are different.

The main problem seems to be with some towns that have between 15000-60000 people as opposed to cities which can't seem to support chains like that in their town centre anymore.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I think 15 minute cities when defined as urban planning to provide essential goods and services like shops, libraries and schools etc within a 15 minute walking range are a great idea, and it's a great shame and embarrassment that they have become the subject of right-wing conspiracy theories because walkability is tyranny while being car-locked is freedom apparently. In fact I would argue that 15 minute cities are not a new idea, but rather a roughly 7000 year old idea going as far back as Mesopotamia and other ancient civilisations. At the very least they are how old European cities were constructed. So never mind the future, they are also the past, and in some areas the present.

Referring to things you don’t agree with as right wing conspiracy theories doesn’t help.

 

[Sorcerer]

Referring to things you don’t agree with as right wing conspiracy theories doesn’t help.

But there are in fact multiple conspiracy theories surrounding 15 minute cities usually perpetuated by right-wing figures such as Katy Hopkins, and right-wing news outlets such as GB news, and even the current Conservative Party themselves have jumped on board the bandwagon such as Nick Fletcher MP suggesting they are international socialists concepts that will cost people their personal freedom, and Mark Harper MP suggesting that it is a sinister method for the local councils to decide how often someone can go the shops and who they can ration the roads to and when.

Tory MP Uses Conspiracy Theory In U.K. Parliament Against 15-Minute City Concept

In parliament earlier today, the Conservative MP Nick Fletcher used a conspiracy theory slur against the concept of the 15-Minute City.

www.forbes.com

In parliament earlier today, the Conservative MP Nick Fletcher used a conspiracy theory against the concept of the 15-Minute City. This principle urges it should be easy to walk from home to shops, cafes, schools, and other amenities.

He told MPs that 15-minute cities were an “international socialist concept” and that they will “cost our personal freedom.”

As I reported yesterday, there’s a bizarre but growing backlash against living close to shops.

Fletcher represents the Don Valley, a constituency in South Yorkshire. He demanded a parliamentary debate on the “international socialist concept of so-called 15-minute cities.”

“Sheffield is already on this journey,” he complained, “and I do not want Doncaster to do the same.”

As a look at a map of the city will show, the majority of people in Doncaster live close to shops.

“15-minute cities will cost us our personal freedom,” Fletcher claimed to a backdrop of laughter, “and that cannot be right.”

15 minute cities: How they got caught in conspiracy theories

How did conspiracy theories about 15-minute cities go mainstream?

www.bbc.co.uk

Speaking at the Conservative Party conference on Monday, Transport Secretary Mark Harper said he was "calling time on the misuse of so-called '15-minute cities'".

Originally an urban planning concept, the "15-minute city" idea is aimed at providing people in cities with basic services within a quarter of an hour's walk or bike ride of where they live.

"There's nothing wrong with making sure people can walk or cycle to the shops or school," said Mr Harper. "That's traditional town planning."

"What is sinister and what we shouldn't tolerate is the idea that local councils can decide how often you go to the shops and that they ration who uses the roads and when, and they police it all with CCTV."

You can argue that there are more sensible right-wing figures who don't buy into this "war on motorist" nonsense (though I would challenge you to name a few), but the fact is these conspiracy theories are mostly perpetuated by those of a specific political leaning, and sometimes these people may have interests in higher car ownership or oil and gas companies such as PragerU (who created a video a few years ago called "The War on Cars" which sounds similar to the "War on Motorists" narrative we're seeing in this country). So where might these sorts of figures perpetuating those conspiracy theories be on the political spectrum? I'll give you a clue, it's not on the left.

 

[renegademaster]

I never really see any of the 15 minute city schemes focus on stuff like overly restrictive commercial planning. Most of them are just chucking plant pots and ANPR cameras everywhere and expecting a Tesco to pop up. Then some councils hide behind the schemes solely a cynical moneygrab then accuse opponents of being culture warriors because some nut jobs also don't like modern urban planners.

 

[GusB]

I didn't think it'd be too long before someone crawled out from the woodwork and railed against the "right-wing conspiracy theory" narrative.

If anything, the concept of fifteen-minute cities is basic common sense. It's about having the essentials within a short distance of your home so that you don't have to spend an inordinate amount of time commuting or doing basics like a weekly shop - activities that eat into the time which you could be using to do stuff that you actually enjoy!

It's not exactly a new thing, either. Large towns and cities tended to grow from a small villages that gradually became more and more joined up as time went along and population increased. Many of these "villages" still exist in that they have central areas where businesses are more concentrated and where people can find most of the basics without having to travel afar.

There's far too much fuss being made about something that already exists, has done for decades, and will continue to do so for many years to come. Anyone who watches "Location, Location, Location" will see that there are people, even in London, who look for the "village feel" when looking for somewhere to live!

 

[Cdd89]

My impression is that there are more conspiracy theorists talking about 15 minutes cities than there are genuine proposals to implement them. A quick search on social media bears this out. To the extent that there are plans to implement them, they tend to be woolly and not backed by the sort of funding that would be needed to achieve it. Unsurprising, as there are an awful lot of contentious details.

For example, the central areas of most cities already far exceed the 15 minute rule. To the extent that it’s relevant, we are talking about the suburbs. But many services mentioned as applicable are not provided by the government (supermarkets, etc), and others may be simply unviable (parks, etc). It’s also ambiguous what mode of non-car transport is to be used for the 15 minute measure. Oxford talks about meeting it by improve transport links, for example.

I don’t feel inclined to spend more time thinking about this topic, and the woolly proposals of local authorities and conspiracy theorists’ alike; at least not until there are some concrete definitions and funded national proposals, and genuine discussions are more prevalent (and not just defining it so areas that already mostly comply become the project). As it stands the very phrase sends me to sleep.

 

[renegademaster]

basic common sense.

So common sense that nobody can come up with any realistic proposal to encourage to them.


And the experiments we've had so far of ideas where every neighborhood has to be relatively self contained hasn't worked brilliantly. Think Milton Keynes, lots of the neighborhood shopping center parts are quite run down, it's hard to get business with little through traffic.

To illustrate, say a new town was divided into 30 minute walking time blocks , you could either put the area zoned for retail in the middle of each block , fitting the 15 minute ideal. However due to duplication and less customer base , they are going to be dingy premier and londis stores that don't sell much fresh fruit and veg , creating a food desert

On the other hand , you place the retail zone in the intersection of the 4 neighborhoods , you are going to break the 15 minute ideal a bit for people on the edges but the facilities in zone are going to be much better quality due to economies of scale , you'll have a proper Tesco rather than some little convenience stores

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==

who look for the "village feel" when looking for somewhere to live!

People with Chelsea tractors to do the real shopping at the out of town Tesco near the upper middle class village

 

[GusB]

On the other hand , you place the retail zone in the intersection of the 4 neighborhoods , you are going to break the 15 minute ideal a bit for people on the edges but the facilities in zone are going to be much better quality due to economies of scale , you'll have a proper Tesco rather than some little convenience stores

Some people will do their big shop online and have it delivered. For those who prefer to do a big shop in store, there's nothing stopping them; if they have to use a car to do this, that's fine. There will be occasions when you have to travel outwith your immediate area for certain things, or use a car to transport a lot of goods; this is also perfectly fine. You will not be imprisoned within your 15 minute area, and this is not what is being proposed!

 

[renegademaster]

Some people will do their big shop online and have it delivered. For those who prefer to do a big shop in store, there's nothing stopping them; if they have to use a car to do this, that's fine. There will be occasions when you have to travel outwith your immediate area for certain things, or use a car to transport a lot of goods; this is also perfectly fine. You will not be imprisoned within your 15 minute area, and this is not what is being proposed!

I'm not saying that anyone is getting physically imprisoned. Not all critics of urban planning policy are tinfoil wingnut strawmen you think they all are. But it is a general theme of the 15 minute schemes that cross neighbourhood travel tends to get *discouraged* , normally this is done by road layouts, or post hoc LTN/ cul de sacs and the planning philosophy tends to punish the big box vs somewhat encourage more expensive local neighborhood store(which it also tends to be pretty prescriptive of where they can go, not just letting them grow organically where their is demand)