1940's location/loco question...

[Big Jumby 74]

The attached photo is family related, possibly of a distant nature, and was left to me many years ago with a small number of bank notes from the 1940's, from various countries outside the UK, North Africa, China, and some European, the sort of stuff a serving soldier or similar would have had in his wallet on return to UK.
I have no more clues than that as to the identity of the loco/location or the loco crew, and as yet can't pin it down via Army/railway service records to any individual(s), as good as Army Service records normally are. For my part the loco appears to be a 4-4-0, and looking at the cab design I would venture it's of Baldwin origin, but other than that?
Any ideas out there please? Thanks.

 

[6Gman]

I'd say the loco has a definite American "feel" to it, if only all those domes!

But beyond that . . .

 

[randyrippley]

those padded jackets look Chinese, but the four imported classes of 4-4-0 on this wiki page show notable differences, especially in boiler fittings, and the bufferbeam number doesn't match

List of locomotives in China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Japanese had a lot of multiple domed locomotives didn't they?

Could be worth checking areas of Japanese influence in the early 20th century?

 

[Cowley]

I was also thinking that the cylinders looked a bit Baldwin, so I did a quick search and came up with this:

Baldwin Locomotive Works Catalog 1907

From Thomas; Ehrenreich's Railroad Extra Website - Baldwin Locomotive Works Catalog 1907

www.catskillarchive.com

It’s not the same thing but it has some very similar features including a more European front end look like the one pictured.

 

[Gloster]

A quick skim through Hughes’ Middle East Railways and Tourret’s Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War does not throw up any obvious suspects. Is the number easier to read on the original: all I can see is 80?. And how sure are you that it is a 4-4-0?

 

[randyrippley]

The Japanese had a lot of multiple domed locomotives didn't they?

Could be worth checking areas of Japanese influence in the early 20th century?

Just from looking at Wiki, it seems Korea never used 4-4-0, while the only ones in China were under the Japanese occupation in Manchuria - and don't look the same (see the link in my earlier post). Different boiler fittings, different tenders - but of course those can change

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Could even be Latin America .....a wild guess.

 

[SouthernR]

The New York Central & Hudson River RR no. 999 looks similar, and appears to have been modified and renumbered a few times. I've not found a matching photo.

New York Central and Hudson River Railroad No. 999 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The New York Central & Hudson River RR no. 999 looks similar, and appears to have been modified and renumbered a few times. I've not found a matching photo.

That looks like it, thank you. Albeit the one in my grainy image has had British outline buffer beam, buffers (vacuum pipe), smokebox door and even what appears to be a British (NE) style tender with a rigid outside frame, possibly a six wheeler? And to quote an American description (I think)...the 'smoke stack' has been reduced in height.

A quick skim through Hughes’ Middle East Railways and Tourret’s Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War does not throw up any obvious suspects. Is the number easier to read on the original: all I can see is 80?. And how sure are you that it is a 4-4-0?

Thank you for checking your sources. The image on screen is the best I can do, the original is only about 2 x 3 inches, so I am going by what I can see. Whether that is the full number on the buffer beam I don't know, but the obscured digit appears to have a flat bottom line, so can only be a '2', so '802'.
The crew I believe are British, as the faint remains of handwriting on the back can be seen to read "....as photo 14/6.."

Thank you ALL for your responses and especially to SouthernR for identifying the loco (class/type). Now, where's my combined volume/locoshed book of NYC & HR locos !

 

[Gloster]

I don’t think that it is a NYC&HR loco. Rather that it is a Baldwin design: they seem to have built a large number of locos to a series of standard designs with detail changes for each customer if required. They built over 70,000 locos and flicking through the two books mentioned shows that they managed to sell them to many countries that were in what would normally be regarded as the British sphere of influence. I think one reason was that they could supply locos relatively cheaply and quickly: they even sold locos to the British Great Central, Great Northern and Midland Railways.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The plot thickens. Further to the above, closer scrutiny (with the aid of this modern technology I'm typing on/using) of the image, reveals, what might just be a Stroudley Terrier A1 (A1X) on the left under the shed behind the American type (999) loco, the cab roof profile giving it away. The loco on the right under the shed, although slightly closer to the camera, is not so clear but does have an A1X style tall chimney.
A quick Wiki check about the 'Terriers', not having any books about same myself, reveals that in 1918, five of them were taken on by our Government to work on a mine barrage laying project around Inverness, the project being undertaken by the U.S. Navy. I'm thinking may be the USN brought over/trialled one of the '999' class locos (how many were there? - or 999 itself?) in Scotland? That would certainly explain the British outline fixings on the loco, and the crew who appear to be wearing military style caps!

PS: thanks for the update Gloster. Didn't see your latest input arrive. I'm a very slow typist

PPS: given the date on the back of the original picture, '14/6', taken in association with my latest theory, even if the US style loco is not a '999', could date this to June 1918 or June 1919 perhaps - clutching at straws possibly, but a theory none the less. National Archives at Kew and declassified files............just thinking aloud. But need to exhaust any info readily available about the 'Terrier's and their involvement in Scotland before I go there. Thanks again all.

 

[mike57]

I doubt it is 999, quite a lot of minor differences, but it could have been built to a similar design, Ive put the pictures together on one page as it makes comparison easier. Some of the peripheral components could have changed over the years, but I think the confirmation that it is not 999 itself is the distance between the trailing bogie wheels and the front driver which are different. Oh and another one I missed, domes are different sizes on 999

 

[Gloster]

I haven’t checked my notes, but from recollection the Terriers worked at Inverness and Invergordon. Perhaps this is one for the Military Railways Study Group?

 

[Rescars]

The loco in question does look very American, but the buffing gear and smokebox door look very British, as do the locos (tank engines?) in the background. They look much older. The Scottish story does seem credible.

Fun thought! The view would almost pass for something in Col Stephen's empire, though I have never seen it suggested that his involvement with American manufacturers stretched further than the Ford railcars.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I've been doing some more digging, encouraged it has to be said by responses on here, and the (now long deceased) family member who left me the image and associated old bank notes many years ago, although not related by blood to the person who left these artefacts in the first place, he being a step father back in the day, I do also have the two WW1 medals he was issued with, namely BWM (British War Medal) and the Victory Medal. From these I have his service number. Thanks also now (as of today) due to a certain well known family history site (Foxtrot-Mike-Papa) and the very fine website 'Long Lost Trail' relating to WW1 service details various (do take a look, the owner of site has done more than many to remember our fallen of WW1 etc) who between them have provided me with the service numbers of the person concerned. It appears the chap concerned was transferred at some point from front line infantry to one of the Labour Corps Units (under the umbrella guise of the original infantry unit), which gives me a Labour Corps unit number and the individual chaps lab. Corps service number. Now I just need to ascertain if said Labour Corps Unit was involved in the works at Inverness/Invergordon in relation to the US Navy's mining operations off the North coast of Scotland in 1918.
That's a work in progress

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Have locos ever operated in the UK with "cow catchers" at the front, even in wartime conditions?

 

[Clarence Yard]

This looks to have been taken abroad - the loco is built for a foreign climate (see the lack of cab front screens) and no Baldwin 4-4-0 seems to have operated in the UK in either wartime. The IRS book on Scotland is pretty clear about where the Terriers worked and locos used at these locations so we are still looking for somewhere in the world where an American built no 802 (?) operated with British Army staff.

 

[30907]

Have locos ever operated in the UK with "cow catchers" at the front, even in wartime conditions?

Yes, the GER tram engines (and various n/g lines). However, I'm not sure that's what you are after
The memory banks plus Google led me to the Fraserburgh to St Combs light railway which used conventional locos fitted with cowcatchers - even tender locos at the end.

Back on topic - I wonder where a Baldwin and the British-looking locos in the background might have ended up in WW1? My guess would be the Middle East, but does the crew's clothing fit?

 

[eldomtom2]

The Middle East seems likely to me. Here is a photo of a Baldwin 2-6-0 in Egypt - note the British-style smokebox door.

Edit: and I have now found this image of an Egyptian Baldwin 4-4-0 in Palestine during WWI - identical to your loco in nearly every respect except it only has one dome. I think that cinches it for the Middle East.

 

[randyrippley]

look at the photos in this article on the Gangzhou - Shanshui railway
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Guangzhou–Sanshui_railway

The Alco 4-4-0 is very similar, while from a distance those tall funnelled Forney locos could resemble a Terrier

1) Photograph of 4-4-0 passenger locomotive No.21 built in 1903 by ALCO of USA for the Canton-Sam Shui railway

2) A reconditioned Forney-type tank locomotive from the Manhattan Elevated Railway on the Guangdong–Sanshui railway in 1903

 

[Gloster]

I have come across one faint but interesting possibility. During World War I the Palestinian Military Railways had ten Baldwin 4-4-0 on loan from Egyptian State Railways. They were probably ESR 602-611, built in 1900. Buffing gear, etc. does seem to be similar to the type used by the ESR.

I have looked at all my Highland books and can find absolutely nothing about US locos being used at Inverness or Invergordon, so I reckon that is a washout. Nor is it likely that there is a Terrier in the background: it is possible, but the image is unclear and plenty of British built locos got in some odd places.

 

[Cowley]

I have come across one faint but interesting possibility. During World War I the Palestinian Military Railways had ten Baldwin 4-4-0 on loan from Egyptian State Railways. They were probably ESR 602-611, built in 1900. Buffing gear, etc. does seem to be similar to the type used by the ESR.

I have looked at all my Highland books and can find absolutely nothing about US locos being used at Inverness or Invergordon, so I reckon that is a washout. Nor is it likely that there is a Terrier in the background: it is possible, but the image is unclear and plenty of British built locos got in some odd places.

These ones.
Look at the arches on the outside frames of the tender:

Palestine Military Railways - Egyptian State Railways 4-4-0 steam locomotive Nr. 608 (Baldwin Locomotive Works, 1900) in WWI

A rare photo of a British military train in Palestine, during WWI, on the main line from Egypt to Haifa. Depicted is Baldwin-built Egyptian State Railways 4-4-0 steam locomotive Nr. 608 (ESR 4-4-0 Nrs. 602 - 611, Baldwin Locomotive Works 18129 - 18131 and 18149 - 18155 / 1900) with a tender...

www.flickr.com

Palestine Military Railways - Egyptian State Railways 4-4-0 steam locomotive Nr. 6xx (Baldwin Locomotive Works, 1900) and LSWR ambulance train in WWI

A rare photo of a British military train in Palestine, during WWI, on the main line from Egypt to Haifa. Trailing behind the Baldwin-built Egyptian State Railways 4-4-0 steam locomotive is a six-wheeled van, a complete London & South Western Railway (LSWR) ambulance train, and what appears to...

www.flickr.com

Ah. Not enough domes. But a very similar tender.

 

[eldomtom2]

Yes, I brought them up in my previous post. While the one in that image lacks a second dome, the fact that in all other regards they are identical - and that the loco's number from the image could easily be 60X - leads me to believe that the OP's engine is indeed one of those Baldwin 4-4-0s, and the second dome is either a difference between batches or a later modification.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Edit: and I have now found this image of an Egyptian Baldwin 4-4-0 in Palestine during WWI - identical to your loco in nearly every respect except it only has one dome. I think that cinches it for the Middle East.

That certainly puts my mind (back) to Egypt/Middle East, which is where my gut thinks the image was taken. I know I got a bit distracted up thread, just that those other loco's behind do have a distinctly British shape to them, but as Gloster pointed out, various old loco's would have found ways to numerous places in the 'Empire' back then I'm sure.
This image found by eldomtom2 is very convincing I have to say, and the loco in mine could easily be '602'. As for domes, well, there were/are two types of four legged transport out that way with differing numbers of 'domes' .
Seriously though, thank you all for your thoughts and input. If I do find any more proof by way of Army records I will update this thread.

 

[WesternLancer]

That certainly puts my mind (back) to Egypt/Middle East, which is where my gut thinks the image was taken. I know I got a bit distracted up thread, just that those other loco's behind do have a distinctly British shape to them, but as Gloster pointed out, various old loco's would have found ways to numerous places in the 'Empire' back then I'm sure.
This image found by eldomtom2 is very convincing I have to say, and the loco in mine could easily be '602'. As for domes, well, there were/are two types of four legged transport out that way with differing numbers of 'domes' .
Seriously though, thank you all for your thoughts and input. If I do find any more proof by way of Army records I will update this thread.

This is certainly a fascinating thread - and v interesting to see the original photo. Whilst I can't add anything useful to the detective work it is impressive to read the knowledge being shared here by people.

On a wider note v interesting to read of the things people ended up doing during the period of empire / war - in your case your relative's experiences for example.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

This is certainly a fascinating thread - and v interesting to see the original photo. Whilst I can't add anything useful to the detective work it is impressive to read the knowledge being shared here by people.

On a wider note v interesting to read of the things people ended up doing during the period of empire / war - in your case your relative's experiences for example.

I couldn't agree more. I thought my spare room upstairs was full with (in the wider world sense) 'useless' info/books etc, the sort of stuff that I myself do find interesting, but few (if any) of my former work mates felt the same about. So it's good to know I'm not alone in finding the less popular/less well known about subjects of interest. Combined with my more recent knowledge of my wider family's largely military background, from a chap who was with The 56th Foot (West Essex) and served on Gibraltar during the siege of 1779-83, through to two nephews of my G-Grandfather who flew with the US Army Air Force in WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Puts a lump in my throat even now, as the latter guys were volunteers, possibly because their parents were English ex pats. Sorry, getting OT here!

 

[WesternLancer]

I couldn't agree more. I thought my spare room upstairs was full with (in the wider world sense) 'useless' info/books etc, the sort of stuff that I myself do find interesting, but few (if any) of my former work mates felt the same about. So it's good to know I'm not alone in finding the less popular/less well known about subjects of interest. Combined with my more recent knowledge of my wider family's largely military background, from a chap who was with The 56th Foot (West Essex) and served on Gibraltar during the siege of 1779-83, through to two nephews of my G-Grandfather who flew with the US Army Air Force in WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Puts a lump in my throat even now, as the latter guys were volunteers, possibly because their parents were English ex pats. Sorry, getting OT here!

Thanks @Big Jumby 74 - well maybe off topic but I bet some interesting stories to be told there from those experiences of the relatives concerned.

Can I juts ask - is one of the people in your original post a possible known relative? I assume you think not or do not know that in as much as they are not recognizable from other family photos, and are thus just the crew - but perhaps mates of the relative etc from who the wallet came from.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

It is possible that one of those in the pic is the person related to my family, albeit not blood related, but I am unsure as things stand. Obviously there was a third chap (behind the camera) who shouldn't be overlooked.
As for the experiences/stories of those personally involved (in combat) or otherwise, I am reticent to go in to too much detail in a place such as this. I mentioned above certain wider details of ancestors of mine, because in the wider context today, I do feel that sometimes - and I find this is difficult to get across sometimes - parts of our history, involving relatives who are often still within memory are too often being maligned by some sections of society/media/etc, which I find HIGHLY offensive.
Having said that, I have also had contact with the CWGC in relation to records they hold about two brothers who are related (to me), who were both KIA in WW1 and who's recorded details only list surname and initials. I offered to forward these guys full names etc for the CWGC to update their records (but NOT under any circumstances to change the wording on their gravestones). I had a response from CWGC which at first seemed a little odd (to me in the here and now that is) but on reflection makes complete sense. What they said was, that the details they (CWGC) held, were the details that the immediate family had supplied after the war, and that is what needs to be respected forever more.
That is how I feel about such matters, others may feel differently, that is for them to decide.