2nd November 1964 - why this date

[Andy873]

I'm puzzled by this date, let me explain...

My old branch line I've posted about many times (sorry) - the Great Harwood loop line was due to closed as from 7th September 1964. This I found the reason for, it was when the new time table came out from the London Midland region.

However, at the 11th hour (4th Sept) BR sent a letter out saying it was delaying closure until 2nd of November 1964.
I thought perhaps BR hadn't fully finished organising goods deliveries to alternative locations etc...

But just as I was doing a little reading about Blackpool Central station, it seems it closed on exactly the same date, 2nd of November 1964.

Was this just pure coincidence? if not, what's the significance of the date?

Any ideas are very welcome!

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Andy,
There was a General Election on 15th. October 1964 which resulted in Labour winning and taking over from 13 years of Conservative government, so perhaps the closures were postponed in light of the impending election from September 1964 in case the new government wanted to reverse the closure decisions. It didn't, so they went ahead in November.
That's only a guess on my part.
Jonathan.

 

[Andy873]

There was a General Election on 15th. October 1964

Jonathan, that one went under my radar, that's certainly one possible reason.
Interesting!

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Labour under Harold Wilson only had a majority of 4 in 1964, so another election was called in 1966 which resulted in a significant majority for Labour. I posted about the train bringing Harold Wilson to London from Liverpool after his victory in #55; his government went on to continue closing rail lines.

 

[Andy873]

his government went on to continue closing rail lines.

Yes I believe so even after promising to stop the Beeching cuts - they just carried on.

Maybe there was so much unsettlement by the start of Sept 1964 that it caused the delay?

Maybe the date was some sort of BR operational date?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[jfollows]

Also, I see that the previous election was 8 October 1959, with Parliament first sitting on 20 October 1959, meaning that dissolution and calling of the 1964 election had to take place at latest in October 1964, so the fact that there would be an election was known on 4th. September, just not the precise date of the election itself. Parliament was in fact dissolved on 25 September 1964, only about three weeks before it would have been forced to be dissolved anyway (five year limit).

 

[Andy873]

so the fact that there would be an election was known on 4th. September

Yes, it's a very good possibility that perhaps this was the reason (or one of them).

It also looks like BR when possible would close a station officially from a Monday but in practice usually the last train to run be it passenger (and / or) goods was usually on the Saturday.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[StephenHunter]

Yes, it's a very good possibility that perhaps this was the reason (or one of them).

It also looks like BR when possible would close a station officially from a Monday but in practice usually the last train to run be it passenger (and / or) goods was usually on the Saturday.

Thanks,
Andy.

Indeed. Most of the branches had no Sunday service.

 

[tbwbear]

I always thought Blackpool Central closed at the end of the "summer" season which the illuminations would have extended towards late October.

That may be a myth though.

 

[Roger1973]

I always thought Blackpool Central closed at the end of the "summer" season which the illuminations would have extended towards late October.

That may be a myth though.

I have not taken much notice of Blackpool in recent years, but certainly in the 80s / 90s, the first weekend in November was usually to be last weekend of the illuminations.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have not taken much notice of Blackpool in recent years, but certainly in the 80s / 90s, the first weekend in November was usually to be last weekend of the illuminations.

That's traditionally usually been the case, although in 2021, the lights/illuminations were extended until early January 2022.

 

[Harvester]

I always thought Blackpool Central closed at the end of the "summer" season which the illuminations would have extended towards late October.

That may be a myth though.

Not a myth. The closure was planned to take place when the illuminations ended (Sunday 1st November 1964). The last trains ran that day.

 

[tbwbear]

Not a myth. The closure was planned to take place when the illuminations ended (Sunday 1st November 1964). The last trains ran that day.

Okay - that makes sense then. I grew up there in the 70s and I remember the Illuminations ending always just before bonfire night. So the Great Harwood loop closure date on the same day could be just a coincidence then ?

 

[Harvester]

Okay - that makes sense then. I grew up there in the 70s and I remember the Illuminations ending always just before bonfire night. So the Great Harwood loop closure date on the same day could be just a coincidence then ?

It could be connected to the Illuminations, as some excursion traffic from the east to Blackpool was still routed that way. So closure may have been delayed until the Illuminations ended on 1/11/64.

 

[Andy873]

It could be connected to the Illuminations, as some excursion traffic from the east to Blackpool was still routed that way

The idea it could be connected in some way to the Illuminations is well, very Illuminating (no pun intended!).

I could imaging a conversation from someone at Preston with someone at Euston saying that they weren't ready (in time) for the 7th September closure. And being asked when, maybe the closure of Blackpool Central and the end of the Illuminations traffic might well have sprung to mind.

After all, someone more local to the area would surely have had a better idea of what was actually going on.

One thing I have learnt is the line closures and the time table of such are best to be dealt on a line by line basis. Some of you have already told me closed lines might be lifted very quickly, some not for years.

That said, I still have to refer back to one of the main reasons the line was built in the first place - a diversion route bypassing Accrington on the East Lancs line.

When it actually came to demolishing two of the three stations, buildings and lifting one of the two tracks, BR waited until September the year later - 1965. It's always had me curious why, and I've always suspected that although the line was technically closed it would have been perfectly possible to still divert traffic along it as all the infrastructure was still in place, but can't prove it.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[StephenHunter]

BR was reliant on outside contractors for that work weren't they? With all the other stuff going on, such as WCML electrification and line closures elsewhere, they couldn't be everywhere at once.

 

[Andy873]

they couldn't be everywhere at once

Quite right.

It's just the 2nd of November 1964 date that has me really curious. Certainly the closure of Blackpool Central with it's 14 platforms timed for the end of the Illuminations and all the traffic that went along with it is a strong possibility.

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Harvester]

It's just the 2nd of November 1964 date that has me really curious. Certainly the closure of Blackpool Central with it's 14 platforms timed for the end of the Illuminations and all the traffic that went along with it is a strong possibility.

Just looked at some 1964 issues of the Railway Observer, and it seems the Illuminations traffic was very heavy that year. For example there were 38 specials into Blackpool on Saturday 19th September 1964, and 40 the following Saturday, although not all from the Harwood direction.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes I believe so even after promising to stop the Beeching cuts - they just carried on.

Maybe there was so much unsettlement by the start of Sept 1964 that it caused the delay?

Maybe the date was some sort of BR operational date?

Thanks,
Andy.

Financial speculators - largely pro-Tory, do not like Labour governments, and started processes which eventually led to devaluation of the Pound. The "money market" insisted that public spending was reduced, and continuation of rail closures was seen as part of that process. Right or wrong, Labour had little option but to allow many of the closures.

As for the Great Harwood line, maybe the closure date was related to the end of a freight contract?

 

[Andy873]

Just looked at some 1964 issues of the Railway Observer, and it seems the Illuminations traffic was very heavy that year. For example there were 38 specials into Blackpool on Saturday 19th September 1964, and 40 the following Saturday, although not all from the Harwood direction.

I need reminding from time to time just how busy Blackpool was and the Illuminations were (and still are) a big draw.

As for the Great Harwood line, maybe the closure date was related to the end of a freight contract?

I spent most of the day yesterday re-reading my copy of the closure meeting between BR management (Preston) and the NUR / staff of the line (13th May 1964 at Blackburn).

It's clear one of the major concerns was the coal supply to Great Harwood & Simonstone stations and how it would affect the coal merchants there. The minutes state that coal at Great Harwood will go to Blackburn, and for now coal at Simonstone to Padiham. What's also clear is that not all of the merchants / coal customers have signed up for this, i.e. some might transfer to road deliveries, and some are dragging their heels.

Now most of these are individuals or small firms and wouldn't have had much sway with BR, however one customer for coal was the co-op, they might...

Trying to look at it from a managers position based at Preston, and given you'd be much more focused on the closing of Blackpool Central (a very busy station indeed).

You can see how BR might have given Great Harwood & Simonstone the same date. In other words, you've got until then etc.

So I think a combination of factors such as coal merchants dragging their heels, Blackpool Central closing and the end of the Illuminations could quite easily come together to give us this date.

Whatever it was, it was only decided at the last minute to extend the closure to 2nd of November 1964.

Regarding the meeting minutes - it makes for very interesting reading, you can see it was a heated meeting. I'd love to share it with you all but because of copyright I can't - sorry. If you're interested, I got it from Warwick University, apparently they hold many NUR documents - maybe they might have something of interest to you, and quite a few concerning lines closing.

Thanks,
Andy.