4 Segmented Articulated Piggyback (KOA-Z) Wagon Questions.

[Jr_Vandalas]

Was doing a quick dive on the piggyback wagons (info gathering, and other references) and was looking on the LTSV website when I see the KOA-Z wagons.

The wagons are very similar to the KDA-Zs, similar description, similar weight/load capacity (given by a lad who helps on the LTSV website) and even same AARKND ending.
I am unsure about this wagon as aforementioned LTSV lad says it could a typo, I believe it is a re-coding but I haven't a clue. Does anyone know if the wagon even existed and if it did, any sort of info that differed it from the KDA-Zs?

 

[Adrian Barr]

I saw the prototype Eurospine KDA-Z (PIGY 97001) on test at Warrington on 25/10/96. 47736 came out of the yard into platform 1 with an odd formation of a former BG parcels van, VDA van, GWR liveried Test Car 1 and the Eurospine wagon (47736 / ADB 975397 / ADC 201055 / ADW 150375 / PIGY 97001 for the record). Unfortunately no TOPS code is visible in my photo - in fact the data panel where the weight limits would be for different container positions is blank, partially covered by a large "Railtest" temporary vinyl.

Within TOPS, the dataset that lists wagon types shows both KDA-Z and KOA-Z with the exact same weight characteristics, which would be a remarkable coincidence for a non-standard wagon type if they were different designs. The wagon types in the datasets can be updated, deleted, or reused, but old entries are often left in place. If it was a known "typo" I suspect one of them would have been removed.

KDA Z PIGGYBACK TRN - BOGIE(4 ELEMENTS) CAP 178.4T GLW 225.0T
KOA Z 4 SEG ARTIC PIGGYBACK CAP 178.4T GLW 225.0T

The prototype Tiphook "Piggyback" wagon TIPH96500 was originally a PXA before being recoded to KDA
The prototype "Trailer Train" was also PXA before being recoded to KDA
So recodings were not unusual for these types of wagons.

With K being "special wagons, privately owned," a couple of books give definitions of KD and KO subtypes (not sure how official they are).
A Metro wagon book for 1992 lists KD as "Intermodal / Trailer Train"
David Ratcliffe's "International Train Ferry Wagons" lists KO as "bogie swing-bed intermodal"

It's possible the KOA code was originally chosen for the Eurospines before being switched to KDA to match the previous articulated KDA designs (Roadrailer and Trailer Train).
Another possibility is that the KDA code was going to be used for the prototypes (PIGY 97001 + PIGY 97002) with the production version originally going to be KOAs - which would match what happened with the Tiphook Piggyback wagons, where TIPH96500 was a KDA but the production batch were KOAs. It's only speculation though...

====================

This article from the late 90s on Piggyback freight is interesting: https://railwaymatters.wordpress.co...07/a-new-face-for-rail-freight-in-britain.pdf

Having been drawn into this rabbit hole of obscure experimental wagon types (many of which I'd completely forgotten about) I compiled this info on various related types for general historical interest:

The info next to the wagon type in ALL CAPS is from TOPS, the rest is from various internet sources:

KAA A MEGA 3 INTERMODAL POCKET CAP 38.2T GLW 56.0T
KAA B MEGA 3 INTERMODAL POCKET CAP 37.5T GLW 54.0T
KAA C MEGA 3 TRANSFORMER CARR (EX KAA A) CAP 38.2 GLW 56.0T
>Babcock Rail "Mega 3" wagon trialled by Blue Circle with cement trailers between Westbury and Southampton circa 2003
Looking smart with 47270 powering this train: https://www.flickr.com/photos/97660049@N06/31605741071/
Wagons "off hire" in 2003: https://www.flickr.com/photos/salisburyasc/2453133643/
The KAAs ended up in Europe before reappearing in the UK briefly, used as low-deck container wagons on an Immingham - Doncaster Iport trial service:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/74356787@N05/51739730798/
By this time the KAAs had been recoded IXA in TOPS

KDA B INTERMODAL WAGON FOR TRAILER, AIR BRAKE (EX PXAB) CAP 23.7T GLW 45.0T
>Prototype Tiphook Piggyback TIPH96500 (PX052A). Recoded from PXA to KDA
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/piggyback

KDA S CHARTER RAIL ROAD RAILER, "OUTER", BOGIE AIR BRAKE CAP NIL GLW 7.9T
KDA T CHARTER RAIL ROAD RAILER, "INTERMEDIATE" BOGIE, AIR BRAKE CAP NIL GLW 5.4T
KDA U DESIGN KD 102A - OBSOLETE
KDA V DESIGN KD 103A - OBSOLETE
>Parts of "RoadRailer" system. Numbers 7091960018 / 7091960027 / 7091961017 / 7091961024
https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/U...xperimental-roadrailer-prototypes/i-CGZ6jvS/A
https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/U...xperimental-roadrailer-prototypes/i-nXCcFsD/A
https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/U...xperimental-roadrailer-prototypes/i-8XZSmTj/A

KDA W DESIGN KD 040A/040B/043A OBSOLETE
KDA X TRAILER TRAIN - FRONT&REAR ADAPTOR, AIR BRAKE (EX PXAX) CAP NIL GLW 2.1/2.7T
KDA Y TRAILER TRN-BOGIE,AIR BKE(EX PXAY) CAP NIL GLW 4.7T
>"Trailer Train." Separate codes for container, bogie and adaptor elements.
On test at Derby in 1986: https://www.flickr.com/photos/82085846@N02/29302641927/
On exhibition at Cricklewood in 1989 (as PXA before being recoded): https://www.flickr.com/photos/23134467@N05/31615917566/
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trailertrain

KDA Z PIGGYBACK TRN - BOGIE(4 ELEMENTS) CAP 178.4T GLW 225.0T
>Eurospine prototypes PIGY 97001 + PIGY 97002
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/eurospinekda

KOA A RIV INTER-MODAL TRAIN, BOGIED CAP 37T GLW 65.OT
>Tiphook Piggyback (Charterail) used for the well-known Pedigree Petfoods traffic from Melton Mowbray
Production "Piggyback" wagons 704798000-099 (design code E736)
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/piggyback
Class 20 shunting at Melton Mowbray in 1991: https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/51382822868/
Closer look at wagon and road trailer: https://www.flickr.com/photos/160975145@N08/48502926427/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/160975145@N08/48502926147/
"Swing-bed" in action: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/13866179374/
Piggyback Milk trial in 1997. At Cricklewood (with very comprehensive caption): https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/50000810156/
And at Penrith: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/29402077267/
Forlorn 7047980300 lurking in Doncaster West Yard in 2007: https://www.flickr.com/photos/121196525@N07/39312920575/

KOA B RIV INTER-MODAL RAMPS HYD POWER PK CAP 8T GLW 37.OT
???

KOA Z 4 SEG ARTIC PIGGYBACK CAP 178.4T GLW 225.0T
Appears to be the same design as the KDA-Z, with FHA as the production version

FHA A EURO-SPINE 4 ELEMENT 5X2 AXLES CAP 144.5T GLW 207.2T
FHA B EURO-SPINE 4 ELEMENT 5X2 AXLES CAP 144.5T GLW 207.2T
7049690014 to 7049690206 (Production "Eurospine" - 20 built in 1999)
Eurospine loaded with specially constructed Parcelforce lorry trailers at Warrington in 1999: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wagonsontheweb/9205064139/
(These were used on services between Willesden Euroterminal and Mossend)
Looking majestic on 4S90 - https://www.flickr.com/photos/75784477@N08/52211365229/
Examples still in use on standard intermodal traffic in 2011/2012: https://gingespotting.smugmug.com/Wagons/F-TOPSCode/FHA
Eurospines in storage at Carlisle Upperby (2012):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/8199743840
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/7810861254

---------------------------------------
Physical specs in TOPS for the KDA-Z Eurospine:

PIGY 97001 KDAZ KD053A OL:196FT/59.646M IL:00.000M OW:2.570M IW:0.000M
DW:00.000M HT:0.000M
CP: DSGN 146.0T ACTL 146.0T CU:00.0 TARE: DSGN 61.200T ACTL 61.200T
53BSU MS 75MPH RA1 VBF00 ABF38 BKEFCE CHG: 00.000T SPDCHG: 00.000T
GROSS DATA: GLW207.200T MS 75MPH RA8 VBF00 ABF99 BUILT: 96 CCS79
COUPLING DETAILS: TYPE STRENGTH:C ( 56.000T) AXLES:10.0 NO. UNITS: 4
*BRAKE DISTRIBUTOR DATA NOT AVAILABLE* REG.DTLS: 65THEU
CURRENT DATA:- 61.200T MS 75 RA1 VBF 0.000 ABF 38.004

 

[Jr_Vandalas]

legend!
(i think i know where to go for my wagon enquiries now! )
p.s. for modern wagons enquiries, which thread would be used? thanks again!

 

[Adrian Barr]

for modern wagons enquiries, which thread would be used?

For the present-day wagon scene, I've been meaning to start a general wagon-related discussion thread in the Traction & Rolling Stock forum for a while now - your post has prompted me to finally get around to it!
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wagon-fleet-news-and-discussion.278615/

 

[Jr_Vandalas]

KOA B RIV INTER-MODAL RAMPS HYD POWER PK CAP 8T GLW 37.OT

This has now left me wondering what the KOA-B could be now. Seeing as it has the description “Intermodal Ramps” Could it be something similar to the likes of the PXW-R?

 

[Adrian Barr]

I think the KOA-B code may be related to the Tiphook / Charterail Piggyback operation. Both the KOA-A and KOA-B are described as RIV INTER-MODAL suggesting they are part of the same system. I can't find many photos clearly showing the loading / unloading process, but the screenshots shown in this page for a "mod" adding the Piggyback wagons to a game called Transport Fever 2 may give a clue: https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=3141113704

This mod includes:
- KOA wagon with custom loads of three different road trailers and a road tanker
- Functioning road trucks (Tiphook, Charterail, Royal Mail)
- Assets (wagon, wagon with swing bed swung out, road trailers and loading ramp)

To offload the road trailers, the bed of the wagon swung out sideways, but the wheels of the trailer must have been at least a foot off the ground. The 2nd of the six screenshots on that Steam page show a pair of ramps, which the tractor unit of the lorry must have used to reverse up and collect the trailer - it makes the operation look very awkward! The "Hydraulic Power Pack" element of these ramps may have provided power to swing out the bed of the wagon, possibly. It seems odd to give a TOPS code to these ramps, but as a comparison of a similar system, the various elements of the "trailer train" (including the containers) were given different codes and even TOPS numbers. Possibly the KOA-B code was allocated to the ramps without them being allocated actual TOPS numbers? The capacity of 8 tons and GLW of 37 tons wouldn't make much sense for a small ramp, but the capacity of the KOA-A wagons is 37 tons, and possibly the empty road trailers weighed 8 tons. In any case, the implied 29 tons tare weight would seem rather heavy for any type of ramp associated with intermodal operations. The weights quoted are a bit confusing but I don't see what else an "intermodal ramp" could be.

A ramp might be partly visible in this photo of loading operations at Melton Mowbray (click to enlarge): https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=11992
The funny little thing that looks like a mini-tractor or ride-on lawnmower may have been used to move the ramps around as required.

======================

I remember occasionally seeing car loading ramp wagons lurking in various sidings, but PXW is not a familiar code. The Metro "Private Owner Wagons" book from 1992 shows 32 "car flat and ramp" wagons in the 94001-94147 number range, with a MAT prefix. The notes say they were built from Mk1 carraige underframes and Bordesley is noted under "usual workings" although they can't all have been there! Tare weights are given as 20.8 or 21 tons. TOPS codes are shown as JVB / JVW / KRW, but I can see a few PXWs in this list from LTSV: https://www.ltsv.com/rd/batch_detail.php?id=BWP-94001
This 1990 photo of Bordesley shows one of the ramps: https://www.flickr.com/photos/lickeybanker/33453982958/

======================
Edit: It looks like PXW was the code for the ramps, and other wagons in the number series were normal car flats (mostly PFB, although MAT 94091 is pictured with a PXW code in 1980): https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/matcarflat
The notes for the KRW wagons on that LTSV page say that they were recoded from PXW.
The Paul Bartlett page notes that these wagons actually used the underframes of Southern Railway coaches! There was another number series 94400 - 94424 which were built on Mk1 underframes: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/raileasecarflat

More car ramps: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/carramp
Assorted Motorail wagons: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmotorail

 

[Jr_Vandalas]

I wouldn't have thought I would be back here, but I am! (and i think this thread should just be repurposed to be for piggyback/trailer-trains in general.)
I was having a look on the KDAs and saw three interesting vehicles. TN95953 (KD044A), CRL96201 and CRL96281. I have no information on these vehicles nor the differences from the trailer-train system they were part of. Is there any other information on these?

 

[Adrian Barr]

Going back briefly to the KOA-B code:

KOA B RIV INTER-MODAL RAMPS HYD POWER PK CAP 8T GLW 37.OT

Most photos of Charterail operations at Melton Mowbray are taken from the railway side, but on page 186 of Paul Shannon's British Railways Freight Terminals Since 1960 there's an interesting shot taken in the loading area of a lorry using a ramp to load or offload the trailer. The small "ride on lawnmower" contraption is alongside, resembling a miniature tractor. The caption explains that "A mobile hydraulic power unit was required to activate the air suspension of the trailers before unloading."

The "Hydraulic Power Pack" in the KOA-B code is probably related to those mobile hydraulic power units. They may have also been used to drag the ramps around. The photo in the book shows the ramps were fairly long and shallow, taking the entire weight of the lorry's tractor unit in the process. I think a folded ramp - which appears to be a single unit rather than 2 separate ramps - is visible behind the rear wheels of the road trailer in this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/13841476315/ (Photo: Richard)

The general way in which the bed of the wagon swung out is illustrated by this photo of the prototype TIPH 96500 (note the support beam): https://www.ltsv.com/rd/photo_view.php?id=48 (Photo: Thomas Young)
In this case the ramp is a makeshift pile of gravel, but the production version used dedicated ramps.

The caption to Paul Shannon's photo of the production version explains that "a retractable lifting beam held the weight of the trailer while a road tractor unit drew up to it."

The beam would have been necessary to avoid the strain / tipping forces caused by an otherwise unsupported load. I imagine the ramps were attached to or hooked over this beam to keep the ramp in place while a lorry drove onto it. Why the ramps and power pack ended up with a TOPS code is not clear, but delving into this mystery gives a better idea of how the system worked in practical terms.

========================================

I was having a look on the KDAs and saw three interesting vehicles. TN95953 (KD044A), CRL96201 and CRL96281.

The second edition (1992) of the Metro Private Owner Wagons book includes these.

TN 95953 is supposed to be a 1991-built "trailer train adaptor" in series with the 1987 (or 1986) built TN 95951 and TN 95952 - a new design code might reflect minor updates to the design.

Given that the trailer train adaptors were only required at each end of the train, I'm not sure why a third one would be required without a fourth, although perhaps they were testing a new design.

There is also an entry for another Trailer Train Container/Trailer TN 96005, with a build date of 1991.

TN 96005 is seen in this view stored at E.G. Steele, Hamilton, in 2014: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21513703@N06/11779488755/ (Photo: Tom Smith)
This close- up shows adaptor TN 95951 on bogie TN 95902: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21513703@N06/11779978414/ (Photo: Tom Smith)

Some more photos of the trailer train at the Cricklewood exhibition in 1989:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/23134467@N05/31652430345/ (Photo: Kevin McGowan)
Close-up of bogie TN 95905 carrying TN 96001: https://www.ltsv.com/rd/photo_view.php?id=7271 (Photo: Thomas Young)
Adaptor (with buffers) TN 95952 on a separately-numbered bogie which might be TN 95904: https://www.ltsv.com/rd/photo_view.php?id=7270 (Photo: Thomas Young)
Trailer / container TN 96002: https://www.ltsv.com/rd/photo_view.php?id=7269 (Photo: Thomas Young)

Was this "trailer train" ever used in revenue service?

------------------------
Charterail RoadRailer
-----------------------

CRL 96201, CRL 96221 , CRL 96222 and CRL 96281 are listed together as "Trailer Train Adaptors."

Delivery of these vehicles is expected early in 1992. 96201 will be a front end adaptor, 96221/2 intermediate adaptors and 96281 a rear end adaptor.

The CRL prefix is for Charterail, and these adaptors were part of their "RoadRailer" prototype.

Other parts of this are listed as follows:

Trailer Train Bogie (KDA) "Delivery of these vehicles is expected early in 1992."

CRL 96101 / CRL 96102 / CRL 96103 / CRL 96104

Trailer Train Trailer (KDA) "Delivery of these vehicles is expected early in 1992."

CRL 96301 / CRL 96302 / CRL 96303

RoadRailer is a proprietary brand from the US, but the system was similar in concept to the earlier trailer train. The TASK brand on the trailers appears to derive from the name of the company which produced them.

Small railheads are possible using the Roadrailer swap-body system which was developed in the US, where it makes 2,000 freight movements a day. Charterail holds the UK licence for Roadrailer. Trains of road trailers are formed by wheeling them into position on a paved railway track and coupled with specially designed railway undercarriage bogies.
Craven Tasker has formed a close relationship with Charterail and the two companies have developed a European version of Roadrailer which is based upon a piggyback-trailer design and can be easily driven on to or reversed off a railway wagon...
https://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/22nd-november-1990/40/train-of

The caption to this photo of the Charterail RoadRailer on test at Derby RTC gives more details, including the fact that "the test programme was postponed on the 1st July 1991 following structural failure of one of the Rail/Road trailers" - https://www.flickr.com/photos/82085846@N02/43332670465/ (Photo: Dave Bower)

A difference to the trailer train is that each bogie on the RoadRailer required an adaptor, not just the end ones, so that there were front, intermediate and rear adaptors. In that photo, you can just see the number CRL 96221 above bogie CRL 96102.

There's a rare photo of the Charterail RoadRailer out on test with 47976 - https://www.flickr.com/photos/50619197@N07/5384559811/ (Photo: Simon Barnes)

I'm not aware that Charterail ever put the RoadRailer into commercial use; the company didn't survive beyond 1992: https://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/10th-september-1992/24/charterail-friend-or-foe

When looking for photos, I was surprised to find these photos of the trailers 96302 / 96303 for sale: http://www.rothdean.com/browse/trailer/Box/406

But that was not the end for the RoadRailer!

Post #2 listed the KDA-S and KDA-T as RoadRailer bogies numbered 7091960018 / 7091960027 / 7091961017 / 7091961025 (the exchange codes and check digits may have changed at some point).
https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/U...-codes/KDA-Experimental-roadrailer-prototypes

Comparing photos of these with the Charterail RoadRailer, they appear to be the same system (the separate numbers for the adaptors were most likely dropped during renumbering), albeit with new trailers.
A list of RIV wagons from 2000 (Mark & Barry Gardner) has these vehicles listed as KNAs - I suspect the TOPS code was changed from KDA when they were renumbered. TOPS appears to agree with them ending up as KNAs:

KNA A ROADRAILER UNIVERSAL BI-MODAL OUTR CAP 12.4T GLW 24.6T
KNA B ROADRAILER UNIVERSAL BI-MODAL INTR CAP 24.8T GLW 40.0T

Paul Shannon in Rail Freight Since 1968: Cars, Containers and Special Traffics mentions the short-lived use of a prototype RoadRailer by EWS to carry paper from Aberdeen to Northampton, which may well be the traffic seen in the smugmug photos above [taken at Mossend - just found one of the same photos on Flickr] and would also explain why they ended up out of use in a siding at Aberdeen.

I can find precisely one photo (on Twitter but it should be possible to view without signing in) of this working, at Northampton in July 1996 being shunted by 08543: https://x.com/SalopianLyne/status/1177678724029992961
The caption gives a build date of 1992 for the RoadRailer, which puts it in the same timeframe as the delivery of the Charterail RoadRailer - again suggesting they are the same thing.

i think this thread should just be repurposed to be for piggyback/trailer-trains in general

At the top of the thread next to the "Unwatch" option, if you started a thread there should be an option to change the thread title.

 

[Inoffapost]

As is often the way, I was looking for something else and found this thread which has some relevance me personallyand I may be able to clear upacouple of your points.

Firstly, the Cricklewood '89 picture of the 2 axle prototype Tiphook Piggyback wagon - I'm actually the perosn in Tiphook overalls with his back to camera operating it.
I was Marketing and project manager for the system from 1988 through to its untimely demise in the mid '90's. The wagons were scrapped at WH Davis after we did a deal to sell the S&M Y27ss bogies to Railtrack who used them to build new wagons for their infrastructure fleet.

In that Cricklewood picture, laying just behind the wagon floor traversing beam support jack are the segments of the 2 x 3 section (mobile) loading ramps.
It could be that the reason loading ramps and hydraulic power unit were coded was because the original concept was that the wagon could operate as a single wagon in isolation. Therefore, the ramp system could be contained within the wagon well and would travel forward with the wagon and thus would need to be recorded as 'present' when the wagon moved, similarly with the slave hydraulic system. As if these items were not present the wagons couldnot be operated. At the time of the picture in 89 the hydraulic system had not been actually integrated into the 2 axle wagon, but the technical proposals had been submitted to do so on the eventual production run i required.

That never happened as whilst individual wagon flexibility was a marketing point,it was generally accepted that the system would only be truly financially viable if it was operated in greater numbers, either whole or part trainload.

Hence, we developed site operational systems to efficiently effect multiple loading and unloading sequences. As you noticed in the photos we utilised small agricultural tractors with modified hydraulic PTO systems. The wagons have a fully pressurised hydraulic system. The tractors privided the external pumping capability and with that attached all the wagons systems became operable. The trailers had their own air reservoirs and these wouldbe activated on train arrival so that when the platform swungout the trailers were already in road travel configuration.
The terminal based ramp system became 2 large singe ramp sections with a final fold-back 'bridging' piece that located on the wagons swing out platforms leading edge. In between the 2 ramp section were 2 fork lift tunnels. On site at either Melton Mowbray or Cricklewood there were any number of of forklifts available to immediately move the ramps into position. However, the mini tractors were also capable of moving the ramps around courtesy of their rear hydraulic lift system using a mini fork attachment.

At Melton the limited siding space allowed to only load/unload 5 wagons at a time, if I recall, so there was a fair bit of shunting and downtime while a 22 wagon train was assembled, but the warehousing company at Pedigree had the resources to adequately integrate the operation into their systems. At Cricklewood, the train would be split and 11 wagons would be shunted in at a time.
I wrote the operating manual and carried out all the training and testing of the site operatives at both locations. It was possible to open, unload and reload a trailer, and close the wagon completely for transit in 2 minutes. Of course, that kind of speed wasn't necessary in practice and not desirable for safety reasons. BUt, most evenings at C/wood the 22 wagons could be serviced within 2 hours including the second shunt. Many small operations could be carried out as the rake was being shunted into the shed...trailer suspensions activated, trailer wheel locking mechanisms released, trailer kingpins released and so on. With 2 ground crews (4 persons) and 2 truck drivers it was a very slick operation.

Charterail certainly didn't fail due to any of its terminal handling. The article you mentioned touched on the causes. Railfreight Distr. were 22% partner in the venture and it later emerged that their stated aim to being so was to see it fail. It wasn't Railfreight's idea or concept and they resented being a hostage to its potential fortune. To be fair, there were losses to be incurred in the first 5 years, but there was a very big carrot at the end of it.The Tiphook Piggyback System wasn't the answer to intermodalism by any means but if it had been allowed to succeed it would have definately have moved the whole debate much further forward and we would be seeing European style Huckepack trailers on the UK rail system much sooner rather than the swap body compromises we are stuck with today. The system demonstrated that operationally it could work and route clearances could have seen pretty much standard trailers moving greater distances between north and south or even continental europe. There was already a 2nd gen wagon designed with reduced deck height that would have accomodated more standard road trailers.

All ancient history now...and lets face it our history is littered with a million missed opportunities. Piggyback and Charterail was just one........

 

[Adrian Barr]

Thanks for posting this, very interesting to get some inside knowledge on the Charterail piggyback operation.

 

[furnessvale]

I believe one problem with Charterail piggyback in the UK was the reduced loading gauge available below platform height.

Whilst it is just possible to fit containers within gauge below platform height, the need for external support to the well for a road trailer meant that the wheel width of the road wheelset was reduced to fit.

This creates two problems. Firstly, standard road trailers cannot fit. Secondly the stability of trailers when on road, made to fit on rail, is reduced by the narrower width of the wheelset.

The articulated sets that required top loading with a reach stacker, and trialled by the Post Office did not suffer from this problem, relying on a centre spine. When the trials stopped, I was alsways sorry that the wagons were not adapted to take ISO containers, being a cheaper option than buying new.

 

[Inoffapost]

I believe one problem with Charterail piggyback in the UK was the reduced loading gauge available below platform height.

Whilst it is just possible to fit containers within gauge below platform height, the need for external support to the well for a road trailer meant that the wheel width of the road wheelset was reduced to fit.

This creates two problems. Firstly, standard road trailers cannot fit. Secondly the stability of trailers when on road, made to fit on rail, is reduced by the narrower width of the wheelset.

The articulated sets that required top loading with a reach stacker, and trialled by the Post Office did not suffer from this problem, relying on a centre spine. When the trials stopped, I was alsways sorry that the wagons were not adapted to take ISO containers, being a cheaper option than buying new.

In fact it wasn't just the reduced loading gauge below platform height, it was the restrictive height at the topof the gauge, hence the need for the York Charterail trailers to have upper corners of the trailer body reprofiled. For normal road only use the trailer roof could be raised as required to accomodate higher cube loads. Wasn't necessary in Charterail's case because the loads were fully palletised dense cargo.
The below platform height for the Charterail operation was used resolved by using a minimally reduced track width axle which was still a standard production trailer axle (for tank trailers mostly). There were no stability issues as the air suspension on the trailers were calibrated accordingly and a road tyre with a wider footprint were fitted. We were talking millimetres here.

Also, other than the rail ferrying systems for HGV's no 'standard' (is there such a thing?) unaccompanied trailers can travel by rail in pocket wagons or similar systems. They will all have to have folding landing wheel systems, fold up rear crash bars, air suspension and in the case of Huckepac operations in Europe strengthened chassis with vertical lifting points.

As regards the PO spine wagon being modifiedfor container use, its often a misconception to think that modifying something is cheaper than sourcing new. In many situations it surely can be, but in the the rail industry, in the Uk or Europe, rarely. Unless at the original design stage of the original wagon the possible re-utilsation potential is not designed and calculated in (as in the case of the Babcock M3 wagon) it becomes a 'new' design and a whole new design application procedure, testing procedure etc has to be entered into.

Piggyback took us 5 years and two prototype wagons before it went into operation. If we hadn't ordered the 100 wagons and taken the risk before we got the final approval Charterail would never have happened at all. The AutoBallaster wagon conversions from 90 tonne hoppers took over a year to get approved mainly by virtue of it being an existiing approved wagon design. It all takes time and money. Modifying a small set of wagons without a sponsor customer who simply MUST have that wagon and nothing else is a loss leader. My experience was that all these projects get scrapped and the constituent parts recycled in some way. There is not often waste. As with piggyback Railtrack bought all the bogies and built new long length rail carrying wagons if I recall correctly. The 100 wagons cost us 10 million to build and I think we got 2.5 back for the bogies and scrap value. It was a massive loss financially, but without the knowledge learnt Rauraurüükki couldn't have built the Tiphook pocket wagons as quickly as they did and these are still operating today with TOUAX 30 years later.