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465912 is back and has regen / rheostatic braking!
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DanNCL
Established Member
To be honest I’d never realised it had been deactivated on any of them in the first place!
But then you can probably count the number of 465s I’ve been on in the last few years on one hand
But then you can probably count the number of 465s I’ve been on in the last few years on one hand
WizCastro197
Established Member
Yes, They all had apart from a few faulty vehicles that the brakes hadn't been properly isolated on or lack of maintenance on them.
Like this example:
DanNCL
Established Member
Is that all of the 465s (and 466s) or just the /9. If just the /9s that probably explains why I’ve never noticed it!
WizCastro197
Established Member
No just /9s as other subclasses have all had their motors replaced with javelin like ones (hitachi) but 465/9s were originally 465/2s but were refurbished with the old motors instead.
Not sure about 466s, they also have metro Cammel motors (like /9) but I am unsure whether they have faulty isolators as well.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
It sounds a bit like the Jubilee line, in that the GTO traction sound you usually hear when it departs is audible when it arrives and breaks (but in reverse of course). 465/2/9/466 is normally very quiet pulling in despite the noise when leaving. Is this because of the braking that’s being discussed?
WizCastro197
Established Member
Yes, they are quiet because the Regenerative brakes had been isolated
Int both examples, lack of maintenance probably (or it’s just faulty) meant that it was accidentally switched on. It was probably that one coach not the whole train.
WizCastro197
Established Member
Alright, I think the coaches are individually isolated, so it may just be lack of maintenance as I have speculated earlier.
RJ
Established Member
It’s a familiar sound, definitely been on units that have done that in the distant past. Did the 365s do this?
How does a lack of maintenance cause the reos to somehow switch themselves back on ?
Surely someone would need to go under the unit and play with the brakes to get them on ? Is it just a switch/MCB ?
It is doing it at both ends. In fact, I believe that this time I got on at the opposite end to last time. This time I was on coach 65711, and the braking sound seemed louder at that end. When I moved through the train to the opposite end, coach 65761, I recognised "912" written in permanent marker high up in the vestibule by first class. On the 65761 end the motor braking either doesn't happen every time it slows down, or it only happens on one end of the coach.
Yes they did. Both the 365s and the '96 stock on the Jubilee line had and have a very similar sound. Motor braking was enabled on Met Cam 465s and 466s in the past, they definitely had it when they were new. I think it was disabled around the mid 2000s.
Careful making unfounded accusations like that. As @ComUtoR says, how does a lack of maintenance cause the rheo braking to come back in by itself?
365 Networker
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It sounds like the motors have been refurbished - they sound much smoother than most of the met cam 465s. I remember back in 2019 SouthEastern were testing two or three met cam 465s with the Rheostatic brake - perhaps this is a continuation of that? However, I believe the original reason that the Rheostatic brake was disabled was that the resistors were overheating - perhaps this has been fixed?
There could be a few reasons for that - the wheel slide protection may have engaged - this disables the dynamic brake and switches to the air brake only. It could also be that the driver was fanning the brake too much for the system to handle, causing it to cut out. This was a problem on the 365s so it may be the same on the 465s. It could also be that the resistors were too hot and the system decided to use air only.
brad465
Established Member
There was a 465/9 that had regen braking in action on the Maidstone East line in 2018 or 2019 that I used before, it was definitely on a peak terminator that was formed of a 465/9+466. Can't remember what unit no. it was though.
thirdraildrive
Member
There are buttons in the cab for switching Regen brake on and off. I have no idea whether this affects Rheostatic as well though, so using them might not change anything other than turning Rheo to regen etc. We don't touch those buttons so no idea what they do. I imagine though the Rheo has to be turned on by fitters and those buttons then just switch it over to Regen but if Rheostatic isn't already on then they'll do nothing.
I too noticed a /9 unit at London Bridge go past slowing with the motors and was confused, it did seem to be just one coach so probably accidently ended up turned on on that coach, for whatever reason.
I'd like to see them all switched back on personally, they sound pretty cool, no idea if it throws up any issues driving them, never driven one with it turned on... yet, might end up in that unit
Good spot!
I too noticed a /9 unit at London Bridge go past slowing with the motors and was confused, it did seem to be just one coach so probably accidently ended up turned on on that coach, for whatever reason.
I'd like to see them all switched back on personally, they sound pretty cool, no idea if it throws up any issues driving them, never driven one with it turned on... yet, might end up in that unit
Good spot!
I'd like to see them all switched back on personally, they sound pretty cool, no idea if it throws up any issues driving them, never driven one with it turned on... yet, might end up in that unit
Good spot!
Have you never driven a brel ?
365 Networker
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I've managed to find videos of some of the units that had rheostatic braking enabled a few years ago:-
465916
465913
465906
465916
465913
465906
Class 466
Established Member
Travelled on 912 this morning and can confirm it had rheostatic braking enabled in both coaches.
Worth noting only the BREL units can use regenerative braking and the Met Cam units cannot.
Worth noting only the BREL units can use regenerative braking and the Met Cam units cannot.
brad465
Established Member
I would ask if there's a way of finding out what diagrams that unit is next booked to be on, but with most days next week seeing strike action I'm not sure there's much point, unless it's out on Monday. Apparently today it was on one of the Tunbridge Wells' diagrams.
Class 466
Established Member
It was indeed! however it ended up at Grove Park Depot instead of Tonbridge Jubilee as normal for a Saturday as all the 10 car formations on the 2H's change from (2x 465/9 + 466) to (465/9 + 465/0/1 + 466) so they needed to swap units about today.
As I understand it, regen is disabled because the third rail power supply doesn’t accept the power generated via braking on the Metro Cammell units.
So instead the generated power has to be fed into a bank of resistors on the train, where it’s dissipated as heat. But as 365 Networker mentioned above, the resistors apparently cannot take the load and tend to overheat. As 365 Networker also said this may have since been fixed, but it is cold at the moment, so that may be helping.
I have heard the power supply was uprated when the Electrostars were introduced, and I believe regen was disabled on both the Met Cam and BREL Networkers around that time. They definitely had it enabled from new until about 2000 at the earliest. I would guess that whatever changed with the power supply has broken compatibility with regen on the older GTO traction systems. When the BREL units were retrofitted with the IGBT system in 2008-2010, regen was re-enabled, though curiously I remember it being disabled again around 2011 and re-enabled a bit later!
Class 466
Established Member
It was rheostatic pre-2000 across both BREL & Met Cam, and then when BRELs came back from retractioning it was also rheostatic up until Summer 2011 when it was isolated for around a year before full regenerative braking was approved for them from some point in 2012.
That's interesting, thanks for the correction. Do you know when they first noticed the problem with rheostatic?
boiledbeans2
Member
Interesting. Why do they swap out a 465/9 on purpose? Are all the 465s in a same pool now?
brad465
Established Member
In terms of first class no longer being a thing on all Southeastern services, they are in the same pool. Not sure why the change in what sub-classes form the 10 car services is rather systematic looking.
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