A couple of class 33 questions?

[Cowley]

Evening everyone.

I wonder if anyone would be able to answer a couple of questions for me, and maybe just share any extra information that isn’t often mentioned but may be interesting for people like me that like these machines?

The first question is a little obscure but I was wondering if anyone knows the purpose of the four bolts in the middle of the front panel that you can see in this photo:



The other question is about the snowploughs.
I think the arrangement used on the Southern Region 33s in those days weren’t as deep as on other classes that weren’t based in the area, and I’d always assumed that it was because standard MSPs (miniature snowploughs) were a little too close to the third rail. But thinking about it recently I’m sure that at least one class 50 with MSPs operated on the West of England line back in the 1980s/90s, and surely plenty of plough equipped 37s/47s must have made it into 3rd rail territory back then too?
(Class 33 style snowploughs. Not my photo)


Also though, why were many of the 33s missing the centre section? I’ve seen some with them, but most of them didn’t seem to have them fitted.

Here’s a photo of 33008 from the Taunton Trains site showing 33008 and the full compliment in 1986, and the one above was from a couple of years later when it had turned BR green.

 

[big all]

the centre snow plough was removed when not needed as it restricted shunters access and got bashed to hades by the coupling when dropped
cant say what the bolts where for never seen them used when i was driver man and boy 71-94??

 

[CW2]

As I understand it, removal of the centre section of the snowploughs was because it made it easier to couple / uncouple the locos. With a pair of plough fitted locos it could be devilishly difficult to couple them together. So the centre section would be removed when not needed.
On locos working over the third rail, the ploughs were supposed to be set slightly higher.
Occasionally a "foreign" plough-fitted loco would stray onto the Southern, and set sparks flying, usually on sharp curves where you get a bit of bogie overhang.

 

[Cowley]

@CW2 - I also asked this question elsewhere and you’re right, it seems that the shunters at Bath Road didn’t appreciate trying to couple the locos when they were fitted with the full set of MSPs. Eastleigh would remove them and only fit them during the winter (and I think that many of them permanently went without).
Oh and welcome to the forum by the way.

 

[CW2]

@Cowley : Cheers.

 

[dubscottie]

The 4 bolt holes might have been for attaching a step like the ones on the class 71.

 

[Cowley]

The 4 bolt holes might have been for attaching a step like the ones on the class 71.

I like that idea.

 

[dubscottie]

I like that idea.

It's the only thing I can think of. There was a 33/0 that got a new front in the late 80s/early 90s. I will try to find out which loco it was as it would be interesting to see if the bolts are there.

One other bit 33 trivia. The "dent" almost all 33/0 & 33/2 had above the draw hook was the result of buffering up to EMUs that had the buckeye in the raised position. A few class 26 & 27s had the same dent.

 

[big all]

It's the only thing I can think of. There was a 33/0 that got a new front in the late 80s/early 90s. I will try to find out which loco it was as it would be interesting to see if the bolts are there.

One other bit 33 trivia. The "dent" almost all 33/0 & 33/2 had above the draw hook was the result of buffering up to EMUs that had the buckeye in the raised position. A few class 26 & 27s had the same dent.

Mmm more folkore

If you look at a buckeye on a EDL/73 loco it's fully within the buffers, so below the the bodywork

The dent is from the coupling being unscrewed and bashed onto the hook in a loose way, hitting the bodywork as it goes

 

[big all]

Also you need to remember that Oleo buffers with buckeyes have a pin and a long position perhaps 6"/150mm further back.

So it's not easy for a loco with full length buffers for buckeyes to hit the hook on the loco, as the extended buffers won't stop buckeyes coupling together.

With buffers extended they will meet long before the rubbing bar and need to be fully depressed to couple with the buckeye coupling so the driver would be fully aware before that happens and correct the mistake by retracting the buffers.

 

[dubscottie]

Mmm more folkore

If you look at a buckeye on a EDL/73 loco it's fully within the buffers, so below the the bodywork

The dent is from the coupling being unscrewed and bashed onto the hook in a loose way, hitting the bodywork as it goes

The dents were only on 33/0 & 33/2. The buffers on EMU stock and coaches retract a fair bit. There is a video on YouTube of a 92 trying to couple to the sleeper in Glasgow while the buffers on the MK3 were in the short position (but with the buckeye down).
The gangway of the sleeper ends up inches away from the cab of the 92.

Anyway, I found a pic of the 33051 after it got a new front end.. and the 4 bolts are missing. My theory about a step that was never fitted may be right!

33051

33051 EH depot , 97

www.flickr.com

 

[big all]

You don't get the dent on the push pull Cromptons because the depression bar above the coupling hook stops the screw coupling being raised too far

Remember my comments are not just "guesses" as i was a second man and a driver on Cromptons between 72 and 94 also if you have a buckeye raised it will hit the coupling hook head on on the other vehicle if not buckeye fitted.

 

[PG]

Anyway, I found a pic of the 33051 after it got a new front end.. and the 4 bolts are missing. My theory about a step that was never fitted may be right!

I wonder if the headlight has been fitted over where the 4 bolts were? It certainly appears to be in the same position so it could be the bolts are still there just hidden now by the headlight?

 

[delt1c]

always wondered if the 4 bolts on the front were for some internal fittings

 

[xotGD]

I wonder if the headlight has been fitted over where the 4 bolts were? It certainly appears to be in the same position so it could be the bolts are still there just hidden now by the headlight?

Other photos show the headlight above the bolts - presumably on the other end.

 

[Smitham]

The bolts in the picture in the first post look like they are holding something in place on the inside of the bodywork to me.

 

[dubscottie]

In this pic of a smashed 33 you can just make out the LH bolts. The bottom one seems to be on the frame and the top in the bodywork with nothing behind it.

https://www.derbysulzers.com/33003eastleigh88.jpg

33050 & 33108 are missing them at one end also.

 

[CW2]

Might they have been some form of headboard / nameboard mounting bracket, later removed? Anybody got access to phots of 33s working named trains on the Southern?

 

[dubscottie]

Might they have been some form of headboard / nameboard mounting bracket, later removed? Anybody got access to phots of 33s working named trains on the Southern?

I thought that also but having seen a 33 on the Night Ferry, it was not for a headboard.

My best guess is a step so crews to reach the centre windscreen/headcode. Like the 71.

British Rail Class 71 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Smitham]

Looking at that 71, I think you're right. The spacing of the bolts on the step is the same.

Incidentally, anyone know what the four hooks are for?

 

[CW2]

Why would the crew need to have access to the centre window? All the headcode gubbins is accessible from within the cab.

 

[dubscottie]

Why would the crew need to have access to the centre window? All the headcode gubbins is accessible from within the cab.

The headcode blind was the only form of head/tail lights. Flies could cover it so would need cleaning from the outside.

Hoses, the third rail and water. Again just a thought.

 

[dubscottie]

Looking at that 71, I think you're right. The spacing of the bolts on the step is the same.

Incidentally, anyone know what the four hooks are for?

Oil lamps. Different positions told a signal man which train it was. Not an expert on this but buy the position of the lamps, a signalman would know if it was a fast passenger or slow goods.

 

[30907]

Oil lamps. Different positions told a signal man which train it was. Not an expert on this but buy the position of the lamps, a signalman would know if it was a fast passenger or slow goods.

The lower ones are tail lamp brackets*, clearly, but the upper ones don't correspond to the conventional placing for headlamps - they wouldn't have been needed on the Southern anyway.
(*the Railway Inspectorate hadn't approved electrically powered tail lamps or red blinds back in 1960)

 

[PG]

The lower ones are tail lamp brackets*, clearly, but the upper ones don't correspond to the conventional placing for headlamps - they wouldn't have been needed on the Southern anyway.
(*the Railway Inspectorate hadn't approved electrically powered tail lamps or red blinds back in 1960)

I'm purely guessing but if the upper ones weren't lamp brackets would they have been for nameboards?

 

[30907]

I'm purely guessing but if the upper ones weren't lamp brackets would they have been for nameboards?

That makes sense, as the 71s had the same, and the SR used rectangular boards for the Arrow and Ferry.