A taktplan for France

[PTR 444]

The thread about the sparsity of service on France’s railways got me thinking about how the SNCF TGV network could be reformed to create a German style clockface taktplan network. Unlike Germany, France is very Paris-centric (much like the UK is London-centric), therefore such a plan would be heavily focused on ensuring most provincial cities have a regular connection with the capital. There would still be room for inter-regional TGV like there are now, but rationalised into 2-hourly corridors with a narrower range of destinations and better timed connections with other services.
I would also get rid of the compulsory reservation policy, making it possible to walk up and go on TGVs like you can on most British intercity services. This removes the need to have separate TGV and TER services on lines with low patronage.

Like with German IC and ICE routes, each high speed service would be allocated a 2-digit number, with my devised scheme as follows:
10-19: Paris - LGV Nord
20-29: Paris - LGV Est
30-39: Paris - LGV Sud Est/Rhin-Rhone
40-49: Paris - LGV Rhone-Alpes/Mediterranee
50-59: Paris - LGV Atlantique/Sud Europe
60-69: Paris - LGV Bretagne/Pays-de la Loire
70-89: Services avoiding Paris/operated by other operators
90-99: Seasonal and occasional services (not listed in thread)

Here is my list of services. Each one would operate on a two-hourly frequency and paired up with another to form an hourly corridor. These pairs are shown with single spacing between them in the list.

List of services (TGV10-89)

TGV10: Paris - Lille Flandres
TGV11: Paris - Lille Flandres - Tourcoing

TGV12: Paris - Lille Europe - Calais Frethun - Calais Ville
TGV13: Paris - Lille Europe - Calais Frethun - Boulogne Ville

TGV14: Paris - Lille Europe - Dunkerque
TGV/EUS 72: Paris - Lille Europe - London
TGV/EUS 73: London - Lille Europe - Brussels - Amsterdam

TGV15: Paris - Arras - Hazebrouck - Calais Ville
TGV16: Paris - Arras - Hazebrouck - Dunkerque

TGV17: Paris - Arras - Douai - Lille Flandres
TGV18: Paris - Arras - Douai - Valenciennes

TGV/THA 70: Paris - Brussels - Amsterdam
TGV/THA 71: Paris - Brussels - Cologne

TGV20: Paris - Reims - Charleville Mesieres
TGV21: Paris - Reims - Charleville Mesieres - Sedan

TGV22: Paris - Reims - Chalons-en-Champagne
TGV23: Paris - Reims - Chalons-en-Champagne - Bar-Le-Duc

TGV24: Paris - Metz - Luxembourg
TGV25: Paris - Metz - Sarrebourg

TGV26: Paris - Nancy - Remiremont
TGV27: Paris - Nancy - St-Die-des-Vosges

TGV28: Paris - Saverne - Strasbourg
TGV/ICE82: Paris - Saarbrücken - Frankfurt

TGV29: Paris - Strasbourg - Colmar
TGV/ICE83: Paris - Strasbourg - Stuttgart

TGV30: Paris - Dijon - Mulhouse - Zurich
TGV31: Paris - Dijon - Besancon - Belfort - Mulhouse

TGV32: Paris - Dijon - Dole - Besancon
TGV33: Paris - Dijon - Mouchard - Lausanne

TGV34: Paris - Lyon Part Dieu
TGV35: Paris - Lyon Part Dieu - Lyon Perrache

TGV36: Paris - Lyon Part Dieu - Saint Etienne
TGV37: Paris - Lyon Part Dieu - Grenoble

TGV38: Paris - Bourg-en-Bresse - Geneva
TGV39: Paris - Bourg-en-Bresse - Annecy

TGV40: Paris - Lyon St Exupéry - Milan
TGV41: Paris - Lyon St Exupéry - Bourg Saint Maurice

TGV42: Paris - Valence - Avignon
TGV43: Paris - Valence - Avignon - Miramas

TGV44: Paris - Marseille - Nice
TGV45: Paris - Marseille - Hyeres

TGV46: Paris - Montpellier
TGV47: Paris - Montpellier - Barcelona

TGV50: Paris - Bordeaux - Toulouse
TGV51: Paris - Bordeaux - Arcachon

TGV52: Paris - Bordeaux - Hendaye
TGV53: Paris - Bordeaux - Tarbes

TGV54: Paris - Poitiers - Angouleme - Bordeaux
TGV55: Paris - Poitiers - La Rochelle

TGV56: Paris - St-Pierre-des-Corps - Poitiers
TGV57: Paris - St-Pierre-des-Corps - Poitiers

TGV58: Paris - Tours
TGV59: Paris - Tours

TGV60: Paris - Nantes - St-Gilles-Croix
TGV61: Paris - Nantes - Le Croisic

TGV62: Paris - Rennes - Quimper
TGV63: Paris - Rennes - Brest

TGV64: Paris - Le Mans - Nantes
TGV65: Paris - Le Mans - Nantes

TGV66: Paris - Le Mans - Laval - Rennes
TGV67: Paris - Le Mans - Laval - Rennes - Saint Malo

TGV74: Brussels - Lille Europe - Aeroport CDG - Lyon - Marseille
TGV75: Brussels - Lille Europe - Aeroport CDG - Lyon - Montpellier

TGV76: Lille Europe - Aeroport CDG - Strasbourg
TGV77: Lille Europe - Aeroport CDG - Bordeaux

TGV78: Lille Europe - Aeroport CDG - Massy TGV - Nantes
TGV79: Lille Europe - Aeroport CDG - Massy TGV - Rennes

TGV80: Strasbourg - Massy TGV - Nantes
TGV81: Strasbourg - Massy TGV - Bordeaux

TGV/ICE84: Marseille - Lyon - Besancon - Strasbourg - Karlsruhe - Frankfurt
TGV85: Montpellier - Lyon - Besancon - Strasbourg - Metz - Luxembourg

TGV86: Lyon - Massy TGV - Nantes
TGV87: Lyon - Massy TGV - Rennes

TGV88: Mulhouse - Dijon - Le Havre
TGV89: Mulhouse - Dijon - Aeroport CDG

Note I have interworked this scheme with DB’s ICE numbering, hence 82/83/84 being used for the Germany services.

 

[biko]

I think the idea of having more regular services would be very good, but I have some doubts whether this proposal would be viable. I think too much focus is on the Paris avoiding services. Whilst I agree they could be more useful, I think frequencies are way too high to be viable. Compared to Germany, France is much more empty and even in Germany many services are two-hourly only combining to hourly on the most important corridors. Therefore, I think it would be very unrealistic to have hourly services from Strasbourg bypassing Paris, especially if they shouldn't be running nearly empty.

Another thing that surprised me is the two-hourly frequency between Paris and Amsterdam. Currently, it is already nearly hourly and most services are fully booked. More services are needed instead of fewer.

Also 4 two-hourly services (= each 30 minutes) between Paris and Arras seems overkill to me. Just like two-hourly services to Miramas or St-Gilles-Croix. Maybe it would be more realistic to have some core routes with a two-hourly or hourly frequency and some extensions a few times per day. Even one-a-day extensions happen in Germany too, so would still fit within the basic idea.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

SNCF has been moving to the low-cost airline yield-management model with its 'Ouigo' services, and the number of 'inOui' regular trains has been steadily declining. A British style 'turn up and go' service is very unlikely - and we are probably going to go the same way as France. It is also SNCF's policy to reduce TGV running off the LGV network to the more marginal destinations. Valenciennes has been threatened with losing its TGVs altogether as have stations on the direct line to Dunkerque via Lens. You also show a very lavish service to tiny places like Remiremont and St-Die-des-Vosges - they were only instituted for political reasons in the first place. A regular interval timetable, with consistent calling patterns, on the core network would be good first start, however, for it can be nightmare deciphering whether a train actually runs on the day you might be travelling.

 

[PTR 444]

I think the idea of having more regular services would be very good, but I have some doubts whether this proposal would be viable. I think too much focus is on the Paris avoiding services.

Whilst I agree they could be more useful, I think frequencies are way too high to be viable. Compared to Germany, France is much more empty and even in Germany many services are two-hourly only combining to hourly on the most important corridors. Therefore, I think it would be very unrealistic to have hourly services from Strasbourg bypassing Paris, especially if they shouldn't be running nearly empty.

While more generous than the current provision. My proposal still has far fewer Paris avoiding services than those serving the capital in total, reflecting the fact that France is a very Paris-centric country.

Another thing that surprised me is the two-hourly frequency between Paris and Amsterdam. Currently, it is already nearly hourly and most services are fully booked. More services are needed instead of fewer.

Also 4 two-hourly services (= each 30 minutes) between Paris and Arras seems overkill to me.

Ahh okay, maybe it would be better then to send 1tph of the Arras trains to Amsterdam instead. It amazes me that Paris to Arras doesn’t warrant 2tph despite being around the same distance as London to Nottingham, a city pair which already has 2tph and is proposed to be connected by HS2. Amsterdam on the other hand is about the same distance from Paris as London is to Glasgow, yet the latter only currently gets 1tph.

Just like two-hourly services to Miramas or St-Gilles-Croix. Maybe it would be more realistic to have some core routes with a two-hourly or hourly frequency and some extensions a few times per day. Even one-a-day extensions happen in Germany too, so would still fit within the basic idea.

That could work. Maybe have 2tph from Paris to the largest cities (Lille, Strasbourg, Lyon), 1tph to smaller cities directly off LGV spurs (Arras, Reims, Dijon etc.) and 1tp2h to cities further afield with lower demand for travel to the capital (Toulouse, Perpignan, Nice etc.). A limited number of these trains could be extended to destinations on classic lines where there is demand.

SNCF has been moving to the low-cost airline yield-management model with its 'Ouigo' services, and the number of 'inOui' regular trains has been steadily declining. A British style 'turn up and go' service is very unlikely - and we are probably going to go the same way as France.

The issue is that TGVs are typically reservation only, while classic lines are not. This forces passengers wanting to make last-minute spontaneous journeys onto the slow trains, taking capacity away from the people further up the line who may want to use the same service only for local journeys. A comparable example in the UK is on the south WCML, where pricing pushes long-distance passengers who should be using Avanti onto the slower and often overcrowded LNWR services.

It is also SNCF's policy to reduce TGV running off the LGV network to the more marginal destinations. Valenciennes has been threatened with losing its TGVs altogether as have stations on the direct line to Dunkerque via Lens.

It’s such a shame that France has the world’s most extensive high speed rail network with classic compatibility, yet plans to remove the opportunities it brings in connecting distant destinations with direct trains. At this rate the French TGV network will become self-contained like the Spanish AVE which is a completely different track gauge to the classic Iberian lines. If the UK had the same extent of high speed rail for the size of the country, enough capacity would be created to reinstate direct Liverpool to Portsmouth trains and provide a turn-up-and-go metro on pretty much every classic line out of the largest cities.

You also show a very lavish service to tiny places like Remiremont and St-Die-des-Vosges - they were only instituted for political reasons in the first place. A regular interval timetable, with consistent calling patterns, on the core network would be good first start, however, for it can be nightmare deciphering whether a train actually runs on the day you might be travelling.

My idea was that the TGVs to Remiremont, St-Die-des-Vosges and other places of a similar size could also form the local service on the classic lines, a bit like how GWR’s London - Cornwall intercity service forms a local stopping train between Plymouth and Penzance. Surely it should be a given that all trains should run on the days they are advertised. While an airline might choose to cancel a flight if not enough passengers book onto it, doing the same for a train service would be disastrous when locals depend on it for essential journeys.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This forces passengers wanting to make last-minute spontaneous journeys onto the slow trains

You can book on TGVs right up till the last minute so I’m not sure what the issue is here?

 

[Peterthegreat]

You can book on TGVs right up till the last minute so I’m not sure what the issue is here?

Perhaps it's because they are often full. Seems a big issue to me.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Perhaps it's because they are often full. Seems a big issue to me.

But that’s also a selling point for the TGVs that the train isn’t cluttered full of people meaning people can’t get to reserved seats etc.

French people are in the habit of making reservations long distance train journeys, this is even required on intercity trains so using your model of a ‘turn up and go service’ nearly all people would still reserve a seat and if the train is full, ie no reservations available they wouldn’t consider using it so you really haven’t solved anything.

You are trying to apply an English logic of turn up and go to a French nation which is used to making reservations and a guaranteed seat!

You say the problem is probably the train is often full - how would your idea solve that?

 

[507020]

All I want to know is where is the Lille-Europe - Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy - Dijon-Ville - Mulhouse service?

 

[PTR 444]

But that’s also a selling point for the TGVs that the train isn’t cluttered full of people meaning people can’t get to reserved seats etc.

French people are in the habit of making reservations long distance train journeys, this is even required on intercity trains so using your model of a ‘turn up and go service’ nearly all people would still reserve a seat and if the train is full, ie no reservations available they wouldn’t consider using it so you really haven’t solved anything.

You are trying to apply an English logic of turn up and go to a French nation which is used to making reservations and a guaranteed seat!

You say the problem is probably the train is often full - how would your idea solve that?

Well there is Ouigo which is meant to be the budget version of classic TGVs that can scoop up the majority of demand with favourable pricing. If there is such demand, perhaps each route could alternate between running a premium reservation-only TGV followed by a turn-up-and-go Ouigo style service at evenly-spaced intervals between each other.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well there is Ouigo which is meant to be the budget version of classic TGVs that can scoop up the majority of demand with favourable pricing. If there is such demand, perhaps each route could alternate between running a premium reservation-only TGV followed by a turn-up-and-go Ouigo style service at evenly-spaced intervals between each other.

But you’re missing the point, French Rail travellers going any distance prefer to reserve seats so if a TGV has no seats left to reserve they won’t use it whether it’s turn up and go or not! It’s just a different culture to travel here in GB. Like I say TGVs are turn up and go anyway as you can reserve up until departure time provided there is space.

 

[PTR 444]

Perhaps it's because they are often full. Seems a big issue to me.

If the existing TGVs are always full, then a more frequent TGV service is the answer, hence my original proposal (with some revisions).

But you’re missing the point, French Rail travellers going any distance prefer to reserve seats so if a TGV has no seats left to reserve they won’t use it whether it’s turn up and go or not! It’s just a different culture to travel here in GB. Like I say TGVs are turn up and go anyway as you can reserve up until departure time provided there is space.

That’s all well and good until someone cannot reserve the next train because it is full and the next one isn’t for another 2.75 hours.

 

[30907]

Leaving aside the reservations issue, two comments:

1. SNCF practice routinely involves what my 4-year-old once called "stuck-together TGVs". I suspect a fair number of your less-busy routes could be operated that way.

2. Routes:
Le Havre-Mulhouse looks like an afterthought. The Havre service has historically gone to Lyon, which makes more sense. What about Caen/Cherbourg BTW?
Mulhouse-CDG would have limited demand - if a service to CDG from everywhere is essential, then perhaps Basel-Dijon-Lille?
I can't see Bordeaux-Toulouse-Montpellier-Lyon on the list.

 

[PTR 444]

Leaving aside the reservations issue, two comments:

1. SNCF practice routinely involves what my 4-year-old once called "stuck-together TGVs". I suspect a fair number of your less-busy routes could be operated that way.

Correct me if I’m wrong but does this involve splitting and joining TGV sets at intermediate stations en-route?

2. Routes:
Le Havre-Mulhouse looks like an afterthought. The Havre service has historically gone to Lyon, which makes more sense.

I guess demand wise Lyon probably does make more sense. Sending it to Dijon and Mulhouse is useful to give the south of Paris (served by Massy TGV) a direct link to the Rhin-Rhone.

What about Caen/Cherbourg BTW?

I don’t think the rest of Normandie has historically had TGV services? If so I probably would have included them.

Mulhouse-CDG would have limited demand - if a service to CDG from everywhere is essential, then perhaps Basel-Dijon-Lille?

That could work, although Basel could also be served by an extension of a Lille - Strasbourg service, perhaps even via Germany if the HSL via Freiburg gets built.

I can't see Bordeaux-Toulouse-Montpellier-Lyon on the list.

This could be catered for by extending my TGV85 service beyond Montpellier to Toulouse.

All I want to know is where is the Lille-Europe - Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy - Dijon-Ville - Mulhouse service?

It’s listed as service TGV89 but only starting from Aeroport CDG.