• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Abandonment refunds - when *should* they be given?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,072
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Creating this to progress the discussion about this in the thread on the new NRCoT.

When should abandonment refunds be given?

I think it would clearly be taking the mick to expect a full refund if I travelled from Wick to MKC, but then the connection to Bletchley was cancelled and I walked instead. Similarly if someone was sensibly avoiding the LNER price increase by buying a ticket to Manors or Haymarket and found that last bit cancelled - and if you didn't intend on actually travelling the extra bit then that's not only unreasonable but also fraud.

Clearly reasonable if you bought a ticket from Bletchley to Penzance and turned up at Bletchley to find everything cancelled, as I did not so long ago (no travel at all), and pretty reasonable if I'd discovered that on getting to London and gone home.

But where should the line be drawn? Clearly this change has been made due to significant fraud and misuse, as otherwise why would the railway have bothered?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

CarrotPie

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2021
Messages
870
Location
̶F̶i̶n̶l̶a̶n̶d̶ Northern Sweden
I think it would clearly be taking the mick to expect a full refund if I travelled from Wick to MKC, but then the connection to Bletchley was cancelled and I walked instead.
Where do you draw the line?
Similarly if someone was sensibly avoiding the LNER price increase by buying a ticket to Manors or Haymarket and found that last bit cancelled - and if you didn't intend on actually travelling the extra bit then that's not only unreasonable but also fraud.
How does one (dis)prove intent to use that extra section?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,072
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Where do you draw the line?

I think what is proposed is reasonable - if you go home as soon as you reasonably can by any means (not just if you do so by rail), you should get a full refund, but if you make a different journey (e.g. change your destination) you should be refunded down to that (and any relevant Delay Repay to that new journey be paid of course). I've been in that position fairly recently, and that was what happened - I went to the (new) destination booking office and they did it on the spot by non-issuing and issuing a new ticket.

How does one (dis)prove intent to use that extra section?

If the only reason someone chooses not to commit fraud is because it's undetectable then that says everything about that person, to be honest. But very often it's the case that too many people are unprovably (but almost certainly) abusing something so that something has to be withdrawn - looks like that's what's happened.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,295
The question in part must be, how quickly did/should you return to your origin. Should that itinerary be investigated and reflected in any decision on an abandonment refund? For example reduced not full fare refunded. Or is it simply quicker, easier and cheaper to refund all requests but perhaps flag 'frequent refunders' for more detailed investigation - as per the current spate of 'we noticed strange activity in your account' threads?

In your Penzance example, having travelled to Euston (on time), transferred to Paddington (on time), found things up the spout, must you then return 'without passing go, without collecting £200' via Euston to Bletchley? Or would any / all of walk from Paddington, popping into Madame Tussauds for a couple of hours, doing a bit of Oxford Street shopping, sitting in one of the Parks for a while, then returning to Bletchley be acceptable? Essentially travel for a day trip to London for free! But you have still been 'messed about' by the railway, unable to complete your planned activity.

Alternatively, if you were delayed and arrived into Euston two hours late, so decided to abandon and go home, would a bit of a walk to get some fresh air, stretch the legs and chill, before facing a similar two hour delayed trip back to Bletchley be unreasonable?

As @CarrotPie suggested, where do you draw the line?
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,592
Location
N Yorks
Back in HST days I was called for interview in London. Specified time. So New Pudsey - U1 return. But the outbound HST was horribly delayed and I missed my appointment. I had the guard endorse my ticket on the up HST. Got a full refund. I sent in a photocopy of the interview invitation. Refund was vouchers but as I used the train a bit then they soon got spent.

Later, i was working in Bristol. My plan was a x-country Cheltenham - Bristol TM train each day. Early virgin days so Cl47 + coaches. But this was gague corner tracking time so it was horribly unreliable. The PIS at cheltenham would say on time, i would buy my day return, then the PIS would change to a big delay. So back to the ticket office and they did a refund there and then. Cash. Then a trip down the M5.

Simpler times.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,072
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Must have missed something. What's the relevant change to the new NRCoT being discussed?

It adds a requirement to return to origin for an abandonment refund.

Full details here:

(This is a speculative thread to discuss what the change should be)
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
7,136
Location
Birmingham
Creating this to progress the discussion about this in the thread on the new NRCoT.

When should abandonment refunds be given?

I think it would clearly be taking the mick to expect a full refund if I travelled from Wick to MKC, but then the connection to Bletchley was cancelled and I walked instead. Similarly if someone was sensibly avoiding the LNER price increase by buying a ticket to Manors or Haymarket and found that last bit cancelled - and if you didn't intend on actually travelling the extra bit then that's not only unreasonable but also fraud.
Well actually a few weeks ago my trip from Brum to Bletchley was wrecked because of a train breaking down just outside Northampton meaning i was delayed by 2 hours and i got a 100% delay repay refund.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,072
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Well actually a few weeks ago my trip from Brum to Bletchley was wrecked because of a train breaking down just outside Northampton meaning i was delayed by 2 hours and i got a 100% delay repay refund.

Yes, and I've had 2hr delay repay refunds before too. But they aren't abandonments.

What that does highlight is another edge case though - continuing via alternative transport at your own cost to avoid a severe delay, which removes the entitlement to Delay Repay for that delay. In the days of paper tickets people might claim anyway and put the money into the taxi fare, but with e-tickets providing far better evidence of what actually happened this is seriously unadvisable now.
 

Fermiboson

Member
Joined
7 Jan 2024
Messages
552
Location
Oxford/London/West Yorkshire
I was thinking. If the delay is so significant as to force you to abandon your journey surely it's also enough for 100% delay repay. I would also imagine that NRCoT 28.2 kicks into play if you use alternative transport.

That said, with the accompanying change about "published timetable of the day" &c. who knows if they won't just wipe everything from the timetable board on the spot and feign complete ignorance...
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,072
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I was thinking. If the delay is so significant as to force you to abandon your journey surely it's also enough for 100% delay repay.

Depends on the reason for the journey, of course.

It does raise another possibility, though, of allowing a claim based on what would have happened if you'd completed it. I can see a case for that.
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
7,136
Location
Birmingham
I was thinking. If the delay is so significant as to force you to abandon your journey surely it's also enough for 100% delay repay. I would also imagine that NRCoT 28.2 kicks into play if you use alternative transport.
Which is what i did to be honest, i just went back home.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
29,043
Location
Redcar
What about the following scenario? Passenger has a Longbeck to Middlesbrough Anytime Day Return ticket, travels in the morning with no issue. On the return that afternoon the train is cancelled at Redcar Central due to a points failure at Saltburn (Redcar Central is the last place a train can easily be terminated and restarted before Saltburn). Rather than waiting for a replacement bus (Redcar is, of course, unmanned by the afternoon so no staff other than the conductor of the terminating train available to help) the passenger gets a lift home (which is not, funnily enough, at Longbeck station).

By my reading of the new condition they are now not technically entitled to any compensation at all or the method of compensation is unclear. They have not returned to their origin therefore are not entitled to a refund under the new Condition 30.1:

You are also entitled to a refund under these Conditions if you begin your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of your service and you return to your point of origin.

But equally it's not clear on what basis any delay repay would be due either as how do you calculate the delay incurred? The passenger has not made it to their destination station but gone directly home. Do you base it on when the first bus was arranged or, if sooner (not uncommon with the problem recruiting buses!) the next train to make it to Longbeck?

Or is this passenger now not entitled to any compensation due to this change in the NRCoT whereas previously they would have been able to access a refund due to abandoning their journey?
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,295
Yes, and I've had 2hr delay repay refunds before too. But they aren't abandonments.

What that does highlight is another edge case though - continuing via alternative transport at your own cost to avoid a severe delay, which removes the entitlement to Delay Repay for that delay. In the days of paper tickets people might claim anyway and put the money into the taxi fare, but with e-tickets providing far better evidence of what actually happened this is seriously unadvisable now.
The new automated systems will not know that you made personal alternative arrangements and there is no way to tell the ticket retailer that you did so (ie no free text box). The fact that you did not scan out at the end of your journey is no evidence that you did not make the entire journey (the converse is true), the barriers could have been open, you could have made the last leg/s of your trip without being gripped.

The system/s seem to calculate the delay it thinks you suffered and offers compensation based on that. I assume it does this by taking your start time and running through the journey using 'on the day' times and according to Journey Planner rules (eg for minimum connection times) until you reach your destination at time x with a delay of y. If you are underpaid Delay Repay as a result I guess you may appeal, depending upon your 'botherdeness' and the amount in question. In the old days you filled out the paper form with your actual journey made / times, with a chance to explain that you baled and caught the local bus instead of waiting for service restoration / conjuring up a Rail Repalcement Bus.

I was thinking. If the delay is so significant as to force you to abandon your journey surely it's also enough for 100% delay repay. I would also imagine that NRCoT 28.2 kicks into play if you use alternative transport.

That said, with the accompanying change about "published timetable of the day" &c. who knows if they won't just wipe everything from the timetable board on the spot and feign complete ignorance...
You can claim a full refund simply because your reservation will not be honoured (and not travel obviously). The delay does not have to be 'severe'. If a funeral starts at 1200 and the train is going to get you there even a few minutes late, you might well turn round and go home (crematorium slots locally are set for 15 or 30 minutes only).

But equally it's not clear on what basis any delay repay would be due either as how do you calculate the delay incurred? The passenger has not made it to their destination station but gone directly home. Do you base it on when the first bus was arranged or, if sooner (not uncommon with the problem recruiting buses!) the next train to make it to Longbeck?

Or is this passenger now not entitled to any compensation due to this change in the NRCoT whereas previously they would have been able to access a refund due to abandoning their journey?
I have 'evidence' of that happening. See my previous point. The most logical explanation for the (modest) generosity of the rail industry on a certain day is that 'The Software' determined that I had waited patiently at my origin station until the first RRB finally arrived, then proceeded to work out my journey on that basis, then automatically paid Delay Repay on the basis of that delay. I had no opportunity to correct it! Should I appeal that I have been given too much Delay Repay?

The fact that I spotted the disruption whilst at home (praise be Real Time Trains), made my own way (at my own expense) to station 'B' by catching a bus in the opposite direction to the one that would get me to station 'A' and thus reducing my delay cannot be explained to an automated system. I was merely going to ask for the £2.00 (Rishi special) single bus fare plus the lowest level of Delay Repay.

As for your Longbeck to Middlesbrough day return, is your origin to which 'you must now return' Longbeck as per the outward portion or Middlesbrough as per the return portion? And why would you want to return to Middlesbrough when you set out from Longbeck and intended to return there. Presumably you cannot claim 'abandonment' as you have part used the ticket. Or can you. LNER seem to have got round this by abolishing returns, therefore thou shalt return to Middlesbrough whether you want to or not.
 
Last edited:

deltic08

On Moderation
Joined
26 Aug 2013
Messages
2,786
Location
North
Whilst staying with family near Edinburgh three weeks ago, I thought it would be good to sample electrics on the Glasgow to Barrhead. I duly caught the 0943 from Currihill to Glasgow Central. Knowing I only had 5 minutes connection, I also bought a day return ticket Glasgow-Barrhead from the conductor when I bought my Curriehil-Glasgow ticket. I also moved to the front of the front coach to reduce the distance especially as I am disabled due to multiple strokes.
As soon as the train stopped I was out and hobbling via the departure board to see which platform the Barrhead train left from.
To my dismay there were two 3-car trains in platform 10 and my train was the furthest. I was only 1.5 coaches away when platform staff waved the train away and the conductor who was also standing on the platform boarded and the train left when I was even closer. I was furious and vented my anger on the platform person who blamed the conductor. I was told trains have to leave on time but it would have meant holding the train less than a minute. This was blatent disregard for passengers who pay there wages.
I went to the booking office to ask for a refund but was told they couldn't do it. I would have to apply online. What if I didn't have a computer? This made no difference.
I wasn't going to wait an hour to the next one as I had an engagement in Edinburgh mid afternoon and caught the 11:19 back to Curriehill.
As the sole purpose of my journey was to ride on an electric train to Barrhead which I was unable to do, could I claim for the whole of my journey instead of just Glasgow-Barrhead?
What do forum members think?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top