Accused of avoiding 15 fares on trains

[GreatRunner]

They are charging me £1,150 in avoided fares and whatnot ... I am 100% certain the only time I have ever avoided the correct fare was Aug 8th and that was because of financial situation, before and ever since then I have always purchased the correct tickets and have proof on my train line app. I did purchase a railcard but this was in very late August when the journeys I were making would be to Piccadilly station MCR . I am uni student and only work part-time paying this sum outright would be unlikely , so any help would be appreciated , I was redirected to this place from Reddit .
I will attach an image of the letter
Thank you

 

[glasgowniteowl]

So on your trainline account there is no tickets prior to september with any discounts applied to them apart from the 1 you say?

 

[GreatRunner]

So on your trainline account there is no tickets prior to september with any discounts applied to them apart from the 1 you say?

Nope I purchased my railcard on 24/08 & bought a ticket to Birmingham the day after using my railcard. Prior to September, any of the tickets I bought were full price, I did mistakingly ( due to the Italian tramline doing age differently ) buy a child ticket once, but refunded this immediately when I realised my mistake

 

[RPI]

The letter makes reference to multiple tickets retailers, this could well be linked to you bank card details, have you ever booked tickets on other apps/websites maybe?

 

[GreatRunner]

The letter makes reference to multiple tickets retailers, this could well be linked to you bank card details, have you ever booked tickets on other apps/websites maybe?

I have bought tickets from
Chiltern Railways
CrossCountry
London Northwestern Railway
Avanti

Bar the one incident on 08/08 , I can provide evidence I had paid the correct adult fare, I have proof of this , I am unsure as to why they believe I've evaded fares up to 15 times

 

[Alex C.]

For anyone who is used to seeing these sort of cases, is this essentially a choice between paying the figure they have come up with to avoid court and conviction, or them proceeding to court for the offence which they can prove? It's not clear if they would take the 'other 15 fares' to court, or if they would even be able to, but they can clearly succeed with the one admitted offence.

 

[Gloster]

One point: did you purchase your railcard on 24/08, which is late August, or ‘very late September’, which is month /09? Posts #1 and #3 refer.

 

[Starmill]

As you have admitted one offence, you are really not in a strong position to negotiate I'm afraid.

 

[GreatRunner]

One point: did you purchase your railcard on 24/08, which is late August, or ‘very late September’, which is month /09? Posts #1 and #3 refer.

ah my mistake sorry about that, I've been stressing . I purchased it on 24/08

 

[Bertie the bus]

If you have done nothing wrong I don't understand why you are on here asking questions. The letter clearly states that they suspect you have applied railcard discounts when you shouldn't have done and also clearly states if you can provide proof that is not the case then the settlement amount will be reduced accordingly. If this was an isolated incident then how to proceed should be obvious.

 

[GreatRunner]

If you have done nothing wrong I don't understand why you are on here asking questions. The letter clearly states that they suspect you have applied railcard discounts when you shouldn't have done and also clearly states if you can provide proof that is not the case then the settlement amount will be reduced accordingly. If this was an isolated incident then how to proceed should be obvious.

It is in relation to me having bought a child ticket once, they suspect I have avoided the correct fare 15 times, this is not the case, what. I want to do is avoid the fact how much they are charging me because of this suspicion.

 

[Haywain]

It is in relation to me having bought a child ticket once, they suspect I have avoided the correct fare 15 times, this is not the case, what. I want to do is avoid the fact how much they are charging me because of this suspicion.

Is that what happened on Tuesday 8th August?

However, I think you should note that they state that the amount at which they will allow you to settle is non-negotiable. Essentially, they are saying pay that or go to court. It's unusual to see this approach but it may reflect that they only have 6 months to bring the case to court.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It is in relation to me having bought a child ticket once, they suspect I have avoided the correct fare 15 times, this is not the case, what. I want to do is avoid the fact how much they are charging me because of this suspicion.

They’ve given you the date range where they suspect you avoided the correct fare.

You should know - or be able to find out - what tickets you bought from what retailers during that time, what discounts (if any) were applied, and whether you were entitled to those discounts

If you did apply discounts, and believe you were entitled to them, you will have the relevant evidence, ie evidence of having purchased a railcard that was valid at the time etc

If you have that evidence, share it with them, and if you’re right they will adjust their demands

 

[GreatRunner]

Is that what happened on Tuesday 8th August?

Yes the only ever time I had avoided the correct fare, any other time I've been sat on a train I have had the correct fare

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is in relation to me having bought a child ticket once, they suspect I have avoided the correct fare 15 times, this is not the case, what. I want to do is avoid the fact how much they are charging me because of this suspicion.

It isn't necessarily in relation to purchasing child tickets at all. That is what brought you to their attention and on investigation they suspect you have done something on 15 other occasions. It doesn't say they suspect you have purchased child tickets on those occasions.

 

[GreatRunner]

They’ve given you the date range where they suspect you avoided the correct fare.

You should know - or be able to find out - what tickets you bought from what retailers during that time, what discounts (if any) were applied, and whether you were entitled to those discounts

If you did apply discounts, and believe you were entitled to them, you will have the relevant evidence, ie evidence of having purchased a railcard that was valid at the time etc

If you have that evidence, share it with them, and if you’re right they will adjust their demands

yes they have given me a date range , it is listed as APRIL 2023 - OCTOBER 2023 A, I am in the middle of writing an email to them , with detailed proof that I have had the correct fare all times, they did state in the letter it was non-negotiable

It isn't necessarily in relation to purchasing child tickets at all. That is what brought you to their attention and on investigation they suspect you have done something on 15 other occasions. It doesn't say they suspect you have purchased child tickets on those occasions.

oh no I haven't done a thing , I just assumed it would be , because that was the basis of the letter, I am hoping to show them in my email that I have never avoided other than the incident date 08/08 but other than that I can show that I've paid the correct amount.

 

[SuspectUsual]

they did state in the letter it was non-negotiable

The fourth paragraph says they will review in the event of you providing evidence. It’s only non-negotiable in the event of there being no material evidence that they may have got it wrong

 

[GreatRunner]

The fourth paragraph says they will review in the event of you providing evidence. It’s only non-negotiable in the event of there being no material evidence that they may have got it wrong

okay I have sent the email, I hope it works out

 

[WesternLancer]

okay I have sent the email, I hope it works out

Obv it would not avoid the criminal record - but there are threads on here where the formula for a court fine and associated costs gets set out - that would allow you to work out if that was cheaper (to let it go to court) than to pay what they are asking for.

But hopefully they will accept your evidence and re-calculate. Good luck and keep us posted - esp if you want more advice on next steps.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

So for them to say 15 fares avoided, there must be something that they are looking at to come up with that, you say that you basically paid the correct amount each time, so to clarify was there any other tickets purchased at all that you applied any sort of discount to that you were entitled to and also is there any refunded tickets at all on your account? Or anything like dohnutting fares etc pay for little at start and little at end? Also why do you use so many different websites to buy tickets that's 5 separate websites you have mentioned in just a 6 month period, nothing wrong with that in itself but if all the data is combined have they found something else etc

15 tickets with an admin fee roughly £100-£150 they must be looking at single journeys around the £60-70 mark if they were all the same roughly spread out would be either 1 return journey per month or 2 single journeys a month, that might help jog your memory on what they might be looking at

 

[cactustwirly]

I would be asking for their evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the rail fare has been avoided 15 times.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would be asking for their evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the rail fare has been avoided 15 times.

The problem is they don't need to evidence it beyond reasonable doubt; they have no intention of testing the historic allegations in a court.

 

[GreatRunner]

Obv it would not avoid the criminal record - but there are threads on here where the formula for a court fine and associated costs gets set out - that would allow you to work out if that was cheaper (to let it go to court) than to pay what they are asking for.

But hopefully they will accept your evidence and re-calculate. Good luck and keep us posted - esp if you want more advice on next steps.

yes im hoping they re-calculate and let me settle out of court , that is what I am hoping for. I don't mind paying but for the administration costs and the child fare I paid for , but the fact they're charging me for what they think is 15 incorrectly avoided tickets , is unfair

So for them to say 15 fares avoided, there must be something that they are looking at to come up with that, you say that you basically paid the correct amount each time, so to clarify was there any other tickets purchased at all that you applied any sort of discount to that you were entitled to and also is there any refunded tickets at all on your account? Or anything like dohnutting fares etc pay for little at start and little at end? Also why do you use so many different websites to buy tickets that's 5 separate websites you have mentioned in just a 6 month period, nothing wrong with that in itself but if all the data is combined have they found something else etc

15 tickets with an admin fee roughly £100-£150 they must be looking at single journeys around the £60-70 mark if they were all the same roughly spread out would be either 1 return journey per month or 2 single journeys a month, that might help jog your memory on what they might be looking at

I paid the correct amount each time ( I have trainline evidence which I attached in the email and bank statements ) Never 'doughnutted' fares, I've never done anything like that or even thought of it to be honest. I've paid for my full ticket every time bar this 08/08 child ticket incident.

Oh no in relation to the ticket websites , I meant they're the train operators I've bought tickets off on trainline, seems too much a hassle to buy it on separate websites haha.

Yes the super-off peak return was purchased most around April-Oct from Moor street to London Marylebone which was around £36.40, after Sept, it was new street to Piccadilly & and the price varied for all my tickets

So for them to say 15 fares avoided, there must be something that they are looking at to come up with that, you say that you basically paid the correct amount each time, so to clarify was there any other tickets purchased at all that you applied any sort of discount to that you were entitled to and also is there any refunded tickets at all on your account? Or anything like dohnutting fares etc pay for little at start and little at end? Also why do you use so many different websites to buy tickets that's 5 separate websites you have mentioned in just a 6 month period, nothing wrong with that in itself but if all the data is combined have they found something else etc

15 tickets with an admin fee roughly £100-£150 they must be looking at single journeys around the £60-70 mark if they were all the same roughly spread out would be either 1 return journey per month or 2 single journeys a month, that might help jog your memory on what they might be looking at

paid the correct amount each time ( I have trainline evidence which I attached in the email and bank statements ) Never 'doughnutted' fares, I've never done anything like that or even thought of it to be honest. I've paid for my full ticket every time bar this 08/08 child ticket incident.

Oh no in relation to the ticket websites , I meant they're the train operators I've bought tickets off on trainline, seems too much a hassle to buy it on separate websites haha.

Yes the super-off peak return was purchased most around April-Oct from Moor street to London Marylebone which was around £36.40, after Sept, it was new street to Piccadilly & and the price varied for all my tickets

I would be asking for their evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the rail fare has been avoided 15 times.

Yeah as a law student , I was wondering why they could just charge me that much money for a suspicion , but I guess I need to wait to see what they say

Is that what happened on Tuesday 8th August?

However, I think you should note that they state that the amount at which they will allow you to settle is non-negotiable. Essentially, they are saying pay that or go to court. It's unusual to see this approach but it may reflect that they only have 6 months to bring the case to court.

On Tuesday 8th August 2023 , I was caught with child ticket , first and only ever offence , Feb is when they sent the letter stating I may have avoided the other 15 fares , even though this has never happened , whole case seems really strange and left me confused

 

[glasgowniteowl]

So again just to clarify I am asking if any of those tickets you bought had any sort of discount on them, you keep saying you paid correct amount and full amount, that's not quite answering what I'm asking, just to absolutely clarify no tickets had any sort of discount on them that you were entitled to at all?

And also you have no refunded tickets at all on trainline?

 

[John R]

Just a point here, you admit that you avoided one fare to save money, and two posts up you say that you are a law student. I’d suggest those two facts don’t sit comfortably, and that you should do everything possible to avoid prosecution if you have any intention of pursuing a career in the legal profession.

 

[Sirius]

If they don’t know you have a railcard could they be looking at 15 journeys made in September and October?

 

[ikcdab]

I think you need to check your records very carefully. If they say they have evidence you have fare dodged on 15 occasions, then they will have the evidence. That can only be that they think you were donutting or the tickets your purchased were with a discount and they do not have a record of a valid Railcard. If all the tickets on your account were full fare through journeys (no donutting) then they wouldn't have the evidence to suggest you have 15 violations. So you do need to check very carefully.
Is there any way someone else has bought tickets on your account or you have bought them for others?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you need to check your records very carefully. If they say they have evidence you have fare dodged on 15 occasions, then they will have the evidence.

This isn't necessarily true. They are often "fishing expeditions".

If the Railcard was purchased at a station, for example, it's quite likely they *won't* have evidence there was one. it's usual for them to just go looking for purchases that *might* be similar.

If the OP was eligible for the tickets it should be fairly easy for them to prove it, unless they paid for a Railcard at a station with cash and lost the receipt.

 

[furlong]

You'd think they might have learned from the Post Office scandal by now - I think it's becoming more widely understood that this sort of letter appears to be quite improper and so could come back to bite them in future. A mere assertion that you "may" have avoided fares on unspecified other occasions provides little basis for a settlement. What if, like the Post Office, they are wrong (and may even possess evidence proving they are wrong which they just didn't bother looking for as they must) but you pay up anyway just to make the whole thing go away? The letter should have been accompanied by a schedule setting out the basis for the claim breaking down the amount and giving you the option of accepting or rejecting each line item. We have seen some train companies do this sort of thing the right way like that and there's no reason this one should be any different. We've also seen examples of companies mistakenly counting the same journey more than once when generating totals.

Ask for a detailed breakdown of the amount so that you can provide a response.

 

[BRX]

You'd think they might have learned from the Post Office scandal by now - I think it's becoming more widely understood that this sort of letter appears to be quite improper and so could come back to bite them in future. A mere assertion that you "may" have avoided fares on unspecified other occasions provides little basis for a settlement. What if, like the Post Office, they are wrong (and may even possess evidence proving they are wrong which they just didn't bother looking for as they must) but you pay up anyway just to make the whole thing go away? The letter should have been accompanied by a schedule setting out the basis for the claim breaking down the amount and giving you the option of accepting or rejecting each line item. We have seen some train companies do this sort of thing the right way like that and there's no reason this one should be any different. We've also seen examples of companies mistakenly counting the same journey more than once when generating totals.

Ask for a detailed breakdown of the amount so that you can provide a response.

I agree, I think this kind of thing is a sort of harassment.

If they can't or won't set out the "evidence" they claim to have, then it's nothing to do with recovering lost revenue or deterring fare evasion, it's just an operation to extract money using the fear of a criminal conviction as a lever. That's intimidation isn't it?