advance ticket - all trains on that route cancelled - which route now?

[beanwalls]

Hi All,

I booked an advance single direct between East Croydon and Southampton Central for 26th August. It’s the long way round but direct and a lot cheaper than going via Clapham Junction.

But now the strikes mean that they have cancelled the train. The email I got said I could take the “next available southern service” - the problem is, all the trains going that route are cancelled that day. The only available route is via Clapham Junction and nobody can tell me if I can go that way instead.

A new ticket at this late stage is considerably more money, especially considering I got mine for £6!

Any advice?

 

[crablab]

There is no entitlement to automatically take a train on another route for which your ticket wouldn't be valid. The Advance ticket conditions allow you to take the "next available" train when the booked service is cancelled - I'm not sure my reading would be to include other ToCs and routes in "available" here, unless specific ticket acceptance was advertised.

In this case I'd suggest you need to get the 'at fault' ToC to accept liability under the PRO for rerouting you at their expense (as the delay will foreseeably exceed 2 hours). That could include them purchasing you a new ticket via the alternative route which is running.

 

[Watershed]

There is no entitlement to automatically take a train on another route for which your ticket wouldn't be valid. The Advance ticket conditions allow you to take the "next available" train when the booked service is cancelled - I'm not sure my reading would be to include other ToCs and routes in "available" here, unless specific ticket acceptance was advertised.

In this case I'd suggest you need to get the 'at fault' ToC to accept liability under the PRO for rerouting you at their expense (as the delay will foreseeably exceed 2 hours). That could include them purchasing you a new ticket via the alternative route which is running.

There are no Southern services at all to Southampton that day, so the OP has no choice but to use SWR to make the journey. SWR are therefore obliged to assist, by allowing the OP to use their services, under NRCoT 28.2

 

[beanwalls]

Southern have come back to me with another route, that doesn’t appear on any search I did. It takes me from East Croydon to Ford, and then change to Southampton.

This extends my already long way round journey by 50 minutes, most of that waiting for the connecting train.

So I assume because they’ve now offered an alternative, I can’t push for using the similar length journey by another operator.

I only booked this because I didn’t know you could go direct from EC to Southampton and, although longer than the obvious route, was interested to see (and it was a lot cheaper)…

But now I’m not able to take that route and the alternative is much longer and not direct. OR I get a refund and buy a last minute expensive ticket via the obvious route.

It’s so frustrating that these operators can’t play nice, even when on strike.

 

[Watershed]

Southern have come back to me with another route, that doesn’t appear on any search I did. It takes me from East Croydon to Ford, and then change to Southampton.

This extends my already long way round journey by 50 minutes, most of that waiting for the connecting train.

So I assume because they’ve now offered an alternative, I can’t push for using the similar length journey by another operator.

I only booked this because I didn’t know you could go direct from EC to Southampton and, although longer than the obvious route, was interested to see (and it was a lot cheaper)…

But now I’m not able to take that route and the alternative is much longer and not direct. OR I get a refund and buy a last minute expensive ticket via the obvious route.

It’s so frustrating that these operators can’t play nice, even when on strike.

To be charitable, they are woefully misinformed. There will be no trains running between Southampton and Barnham (which is just west of Ford). There is no alternative route you can take which involves taking Southern; the only option involves using SWR.

You should respond asking them to come up with a proper alternative - i.e. ticket acceptance or permission to use SWR.

 

[beanwalls]

This is what they said. I don’t know that part of the world at all. I could find any trains going that way - and told them so - but they said if I “select travel via Barnham it should come up” but I haven’t tried it.

Do you really think they have no idea what they are talking about? I wouldn’t be surprised, but it’s so disappointing if true… and how do I prove that to them?

I asked them to double check the route - and a different person has come back with the below. They are suggesting I pay the difference, which is more than buying a brand new ticket so ridiculous.

 

[crablab]

They are suggesting I pay the difference, which is more than buying a brand new ticket so ridiculous.

And completely incorrect. They are required to reroute you.

so the OP has no choice but to use SWR to make the journey. SWR are therefore obliged to assist, by allowing the OP to use their services, under NRCoT 28.2

I understand your point but as with Lumo/LNER & GC/LNER, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable making that argument to a guard or RPI. Unfortunately it could easily escalate and that generally wouldn't be worth it, in my opinion anyway.

 

[beanwalls]

I don’t want to just argue this point on the train. It’s probably going to be a horrible journey anyway. I want to get this resolved with the operators before I travel - either with a new ticket or something in writing that says I can use my existing ticket on the other line.

Can anyone suggest what I should say to them to make this case?

 

[crablab]

I would suggest, quoting from an email I wrote not long ago...

As $ToC have cancelled my intended service and there is a reasonable expectation of delay exceeding 60 minutes, under Article 16 of the Regulation 1371/2007 on Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations (PRO) I am requesting "continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity".

I would be grateful if you would be able to confirm what arrangements $ToC is able to make in these circumstances, and with some expediency given the limited time available.

 

[alistairlees]

It's all very unsatisfactory. The industry commercial policy for the day includes these relevant parts

1. Ticket Acceptance - remove route validity restrictions for Advance tickets on case by case basis (needs TOC agreement)

2. Advance ticket validity extended to another timetabled service depending on scale of actions. TOCs to inform customers with seat reservations of required action for re-booking seat.

3. Customers with Advance, Anytime or Off-Peak tickets for travel on a strike day can instead use their ticket on an alternative date: Tickets for Saturday 26 August can be used on the day before the date on the ticket or up to and including Tuesday 29 August

I would just travel via SW, if you must travel on the Saturday (noting the acceptance on other days, as above). What else would you be expected to do? Walk? Pay more money? I expect an SWR guard would be sympathetic, though that is obviously not guaranteed.

 

[crablab]

Essentially, if you want to be sure you won't have hassle you should buy (or excess) the ticket to be valid for the rerouting you now need to take.

Contractually and legally the original TOC should have arranged rerouting, so you'd then be in the position of trying to recover the extra money you've spent to put you back in the position you should have been in, if they'd fulfiled the contract (rerouting at no expense to yourself).

To do that it's helpful to have written confirmation that they are declining to reroute you, as it demonstrates that you've given them every opportunity to resolve the situation should you need to resort to the small claims court.

 

[MrJeeves]

They are suggesting I pay the difference, which is more than buying a brand new ticket so ridiculous.

I find this even more hilarious since you can't excess away a TOC restriction on a ticket! (I assume this is due to how revenue sharing works.)

 

[crablab]

I find this even more hilarious since you can't excess away a TOC restriction on a ticket!

Well, you _can_ but indirectly and it's off topic for this thread

 

[beanwalls]

They have said I can travel the next day, but I have an event to attend that only happens on 26th.

I’m also getting the impression that anyone I’m talking to has limited knowledge and is just reading from a T&C page sent to them.

 

[crablab]

They have said I can travel the next day, but I have an event to attend that only happens on 26th.

That is not the "earliest opportunity". It's up to them how they do it; as Watershed said the industry should have made arrangements for this already as there are alternative routes to your destination, but even if not they could book a bus or a taxi.

My suggestion would be:
- ask for rerouting under the PRO (see my post above) stressing your engagement on the 26th and your original itinerary
- keep copies of written communication and ideally get an explicit refusal to provide you with rerouting on the day, if they aren't going to do that
- turn up at your alternative route and explain your train has been cancelled and show your ticket. Hopefully their staff will be understanding and will endorse your ticket accordingly and let you through the barrier etc.
- if you do have to purchase any additional tickets to travel, keep the receipts!
- finally, if you're out of pocket then take this up with the TOCs after the event. The TOC rendering assistance shouldn't require you to pay anything additional (NRCoT 28.2), but the at fault TOC should have made arrangements for rerouting in any case (eg. ticket acceptance). Hopefully one or other of them will reimburse you in that situation.

 

[beanwalls]

Thank you! I’ve written a variation on your post and will see what they say. This is all incredibly helpful - but also incredibly disappointing that this is what I have to do. What a mess of a system.

Reply from Southern:

 

[alistairlees]

Thank you! I’ve written a variation on your post and will see what they say. This is all incredibly helpful - but also incredibly disappointing that this is what I have to do. What a mess of a system.

Reply from Southern:

I think I would just ask SWR if they will accept your ticket. You could also try writing to Rail Delivery Group, to ask that they ask SWR and Southern to accept this (a bit of a long shot really).

 

[beanwalls]

SWR have said I need to use southern services. My only option is to get a refund (which requires me posting my ticket back to them ) and buying a new ticket (at a much higher cost) via the Clapham Junction route.

Rubbish, but oh well..

 

[tspaul26]

SWR have said I need to use southern services. My only option is to get a refund (which requires me posting my ticket back to them ) and buying a new ticket (at a much higher cost) via the Clapham Junction route.

Rubbish, but oh well..

Keep copies of everything.

If you do end up buying a new ticket then come back here and we can assist with a letter before action against Southern to recover the money for you.

 

[crablab]

And don't refund your orignal ticket!

 

[Haywain]

And don't refund your orignal ticket!

Indeed. Do this and, as far as Southern are concerned, it's case closed.

 

[Adam Williams]

You could also try writing to Rail Delivery Group, to ask that they ask SWR and Southern to accept this (a bit of a long shot really).

I found it quite telling that the copy-pasted strike arrangements briefs have always had wording along the lines of "ticket acceptance to be sorted out/communicated locally".

There's never really been any attempt to co-ordinate things at a high level here, the desire is very much for customers to just get a refund so that the travel contract doesn't need to be upheld.

 

[MrJeeves]

I found it quite telling that the copy-pasted strike arrangements briefs have always had wording along the lines of "ticket acceptance to be sorted out/communicated locally".

There's never really been any attempt to co-ordinate things at a high level here, the desire is very much for customers to just get a refund so that the travel contract doesn't need to be upheld.

Out of interest, what power do TOCs have over cancelling tickets? We've mentioned before to, where a loophole or error exists, get a paper ticket instead of e-Tickets.

In this scenario, if the TOC asked for proof of their ticket, or the passenger provided it, could the TOC simply revoke the ticket and refund the consumer without any action required from the 3rd-party retailer, or is there a process to be followed for this?

 

[Watershed]

I found it quite telling that the copy-pasted strike arrangements briefs have always had wording along the lines of "ticket acceptance to be sorted out/communicated locally".

There's never really been any attempt to co-ordinate things at a high level here, the desire is very much for customers to just get a refund so that the travel contract doesn't need to be upheld.

Indeed. The RDG has done absolutely nothing to ensure such acceptance is actually arranged. They consider their job done as long as they communicate to members that acceptance should be put in place (with no directions as to when, where or how this is arranged). It's absolutely useless.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Indeed. The RDG has done absolutely nothing to ensure such acceptance is actually arranged. They consider their job done as long as they communicate to members that acceptance should be put in place (with no directions as to when, where or how this is arranged). It's absolutely useless.

Ticket acceptance is almost always in place, unless it's clearly impractical to do so (e.g. during the recent Oxford and Banbury blockade), but only advertised internally. Presumably to try and reduce the risk of overwhelming the limited available capacity on some routes.

 

[Adam Williams]

Ticket acceptance is almost always in place, unless it's clearly impractical to do so, but only advertised internally

That's useless to passengers, and frankly not good enough in 2023. How're you supposed to plan?

This needs to be available in an electronic data feed so that retailers can fully advise pax what their options are; I believe SISJ has already identified as much of a requirement, but frankly any idiot with a bit of common sense could've told you the current situation is far from ideal.

Presumably to try and reduce the risk of overwhelming the limited available capacity on some routes.

So let retailers book affected passengers new seats to make use of the available capacity?

 

[Watershed]

Ticket acceptance is almost always in place, unless it's clearly impractical to do so, but only advertised internally. Presumably to try and reduce the risk of overwhelming the limited available capacity on some routes.

Perhaps on your patch, but I've not seen any evidence of it being in place on a widespread basis. Certainly if it is, the RDG and TOCs have done a terrible job of communicating it across the industry!

The purported risk of overcrowding is no excuse for fobbing existing ticket holders off and suggesting their only options are to get a refund or travel on another day.

 

[Adam Williams]

I've not seen any evidence of it being in place on a widespread basis

I've also seen it to be glaringly absent on a number of occasions. I got the digital equivalent of a shrug when I asked Chiltern what a passenger was supposed to do to get to their destination where there was no ticket acceptance in place.

It's easier to pass the buck to the retailer who will have incurred costs fulfilling the purchase and will have to incur additional costs when they inevitably have to issue a refund - because who wants to risk trying to travel with zero information about how they can get to their destination?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Traditionally very little or no acceptance was put in place for strikes (as opposed to normal disruption). However it's clear from the EU reg on rerouteing that it should be.

I guess this "rerouteing" thing is going to need a legal test at some point, otherwise it will continue to lack teeth. Airlines took the mick on EU261 originally, but now it is fairly well respected, even by the likes of Ryanair.