Advance Ticket service doesn't exist anymore and no suitable replacements as-per ticket restrictions

[MrJeeves]

Hi all,

I've booked an advance ticket from Exeter Central to Waterloo at 1930 on New Year's Eve, but looking at RTT now, it seems the only 1930 departure now terminates at Salisbury.

Looking at timetablehistory.com, it seems the 1930 train was changed to terminate early and the only direct service nearby was 1830 and has been removed.

What's my options here? Using non-SWR to actually get home on my SWR advance? I assume my ticket should probably get endorsed or I should get written confirmation that I'm allowed to do this before just doing it. NRE shows the best way of actually getting home is leaving an hour earlier and going GWR to Paddington instead.

This is part of a split-ticket itinerary consisting of a London Z1-6 Travelcard from Burgess Hill for my outbound and return to Waterloo for this journey.

Just looking at SWR's strike page (https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/train-ticket-refunds/strike-refunds), I see they have said:

GWR will accept other train operators’ tickets for use on any reasonable route to the customer’s destination. This includes other operators’ train company specific Advance Purchase tickets that under normal circumstances would not be valid for use on our services.

I guess that covers me?

 

[Huntergreed]

Hi all,

I've booked an advance ticket from Exeter Central to Waterloo at 1930 on New Year's Eve, but looking at RTT now, it seems the only 1930 departure now terminates at Salisbury.

Looking at timetablehistory.com, it seems the 1930 train was changed to terminate early and the only direct service nearby was 1830 and has been removed.

What's my options here? Using non-SWR to actually get home on my SWR advance? I assume my ticket should probably get endorsed or I should get written confirmation that I'm allowed to do this before just doing it. NRE shows the best way of actually getting home is leaving an hour earlier and going GWR to Paddington instead.

This is part of a split-ticket itinerary consisting of a London Z1-6 Travelcard from Burgess Hill for my outbound and return to Waterloo for this journey.

Just looking at SWR's strike page (https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/train-ticket-refunds/strike-refunds), I see they have said:



I guess that covers me?

Yes, given that SWR have explicitly stated this (and there are no alternatives, even changing at Salisbury, to get to Waterloo) using GWR should be fine. I would travel on the 19:18, as this is the closest to your initially booked ticket.

I would personally get in touch with SWR and GWR just to confirm for reassurance, on the very low chance you’re challenged (and if possible, get a seat reservation from GWR, as I can imagine this May cause services to be quite busy!), but this would certainly be permitted from what I can see.

 

[miklcct]

Hi all,

I've booked an advance ticket from Exeter Central to Waterloo at 1930 on New Year's Eve, but looking at RTT now, it seems the only 1930 departure now terminates at Salisbury.

Looking at timetablehistory.com, it seems the 1930 train was changed to terminate early and the only direct service nearby was 1830 and has been removed.

What's my options here? Using non-SWR to actually get home on my SWR advance? I assume my ticket should probably get endorsed or I should get written confirmation that I'm allowed to do this before just doing it. NRE shows the best way of actually getting home is leaving an hour earlier and going GWR to Paddington instead.

This is part of a split-ticket itinerary consisting of a London Z1-6 Travelcard from Burgess Hill for my outbound and return to Waterloo for this journey.

Just looking at SWR's strike page (https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/train-ticket-refunds/strike-refunds), I see they have said:



I guess that covers me?

The final SWR itinerary will be departing at 17:30 and changing at Basingstoke.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes, given that SWR have explicitly stated this (and there are no alternatives, even changing at Salisbury, to get to Waterloo) using GWR should be fine. I would travel on the 19:18, as this is the closest to your initially booked ticket.

I would personally get in touch with SWR and GWR just to confirm for reassurance, on the very low chance you’re challenged (and if possible, get a seat reservation from GWR, as I can imagine this May cause services to be quite busy!), but this would certainly be permitted from what I can see.

Got in touch with SWR and they have said the ticket acceptance is only in place for GWR on strike days, not the current overtime ban situation.

Time to figure out what to do instead.

 

[Huntergreed]

Got in touch with SWR and they have said the ticket acceptance is only in place for GWR on strike days, not the current overtime ban situation.

Time to figure out what to do instead.

Did you fully explain the situation to them?

Although they are absolved of their responsibility to give you delay repay based on the ridiculous “10PM Rule”, they are not absolved of their responsibility to get you to your destination or provide accommodation until such a point where they are able to, if possible (which it evidently is).

I would just ask them more explicitly, what you should so. If email/social media don’t come back with anything useful, it might be worthwhile phoning them.

You are also entitled to a full refund as your train was cancelled, and you could just rebook using GWR, but this would likely be a lot more expensive.

 

[MrJeeves]

Did you fully explain the situation to them?

Although they are absolved of their responsibility to give you delay repay based on the ridiculous “10PM Rule”, they are not absolved of their responsibility to get you to your destination or provide accommodation until such a point where they are able to, if possible (which it evidently is).

I would just ask them more explicitly, what you should so. If email/social media don’t come back with anything useful, it might be worthwhile phoning them.

You are also entitled to a full refund as your train was cancelled, and you could just rebook using GWR, but this would likely be a lot more expensive.

Will do.

GWR being more expensive is a given considering I paid £9.15 for each leg of the journey on SWR!

 

[Huntergreed]

Will do.

GWR being more expensive is a given considering I paid £9.15 for each leg of the journey on SWR!

The cheapest I can find on GWR is £49.30 with a split at Bristol, sadly:


I would be tempted just to phone SWR, they can’t exactly refuse to do anything, and unless they’re willing to either provide a replacement coach to London or put you up in a hotel, arranging acceptance with GWR seems to be, by far, the easiest option for them as well as you.

 

[Class800]

The cheapest I can find on GWR is £49.30 with a split at Bristol, sadly:

View attachment 126187
I would be tempted just to phone SWR, they can’t exactly refuse to do anything, and unless they’re willing to either provide a replacement coach to London or put you up in a hotel, arranging acceptance with GWR seems to be, by far, the easiest option for them as well as you.

I've found in recent times SWR are not the best to deal with these sorts of situations. I would suggest contacting SWR in advance. Or if you are anywhere near Exeter St Davids in the days ahead, I do find the station manager's office usually helpful in putting arrangements together and putting it on paper. But it's not certain.

 

[MrJeeves]

I would be tempted just to phone SWR, they can’t exactly refuse to do anything, and unless they’re willing to either provide a replacement coach to London or put you up in a hotel, arranging acceptance with GWR seems to be, by far, the easiest option for them as well as you.

The issue with that is I have a flight from Gatwick the next day at about 1pm, so I do really need to be home that night.

Worst case scenario is that I get the 17:30 service as mentioned earlier and explain the situation if challenged. These issues are when I really appreciate some TOCs helpful service and their accommodating attitude (GTR in my experience).

I'll give them a call today and see what happens. Is there anything I should quote to them on the phone that might help them do something for me?

I've found in recent times SWR are not the best to deal with these sorts of situations. I would suggest contacting SWR in advance. Or if you are anywhere near Exeter St Davids in the days ahead, I do find the station manager's office usually helpful in putting arrangements together and putting it on paper. But it's not certain.

I won't be anywhere near Exeter except that day -- I live down near Brighton and only chose to take this trip due to the insanely cheap tickets!

EDIT: Here's a fun Twitter thread for you then: https://twitter.com/davwheat_/status/1608765249368502275

 

[Class800]

I've read the Twitter thread. This seems SWR's standard position over the past years. They are very helpful except when the cause is industrial action. I can't make any further suggestions. Others might, but it may be difficult to rely on some of these ideas in practice.

 

[MrJeeves]

Just got off the phone with SWR who said (after about 6 mins on hold) that I can use the ticket on the GWR St David's to Paddington service.

I made sure to record this call in case anyone challenges me when I make the journey. Let's hope I don't get a TIR!

 

[Huntergreed]

Just got off the phone with SWR who said (after about 6 mins on hold) that I can use the ticket on the GWR St David's to Paddington service.

I made sure to record this call in case anyone challenges me when I make the journey. Let's hope I don't get a TIR!

As you have been told by a staff member you can do this (and, cleverly, recorded this), any TIR would be successfully appealed on the basis that you has been given authority to travel. The onus is now on the staff member, not you, to justify their actions in the event the ticket is questioned.

If I were you, just the ensure I was keeping myself in the right, I would speak to GWR either beforehand over the phone or at the station and confirm.

 

[Class800]

Just got off the phone with SWR who said (after about 6 mins on hold) that I can use the ticket on the GWR St David's to Paddington service.

I made sure to record this call in case anyone challenges me when I make the journey. Let's hope I don't get a TIR!

As you have been told by a staff member you can do this (and, cleverly, recorded this), any TIR would be successfully appealed on the basis that you has been given authority to travel. The onus is now on the staff member, not you, to justify their actions in the event the ticket is questioned.

If I were you, just the ensure I was in hmm keeping myself in the right, I would speak to GWR either beforehand over the phone or at the station and confirm.

Although as it's not in writing, it could be a bit of 'he said, she said' - hard to prove. An unauthorised recording may not be permissible evidence in eyes of staff. I have found GWR guards pretty unsympathetic in the past with such situations. Difficult situation. I hope the journey goes well!

 

[Huntergreed]

Although as it's not in writing, it could be a bit of 'he said, she said' - hard to prove. An unauthorised recording may not be permissible evidence in eyes of staff. I have found GWR guards pretty unsympathetic in the past with such situations. Difficult situation. I hope the journey goes well!

Indeed, I would recommend speaking to GWR (either via phone or at the station) to get permission (stating SWR have advised you to catch their service), and get them to endorse the ticket.

 

[tspaul26]

I made sure to record this call in case anyone challenges me when I make the journey. Let's hope I don't get a TIR!

I would strongly recommend that you make a written note of this call (date, time, which number you rang, to whom you spoke and what he said).

Make that note now whilst it is fresh in your mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just got off the phone with SWR who said (after about 6 mins on hold) that I can use the ticket on the GWR St David's to Paddington service.

I made sure to record this call in case anyone challenges me when I make the journey. Let's hope I don't get a TIR!

Do SWR have the right to do that?

 

[tspaul26]

Although as it's not in writing, it could be a bit of 'he said, she said' - hard to prove. An unauthorised recording may not be permissible evidence in eyes of staff.

If the OP encounters no issues then it’s not a problem.

If GWR do try to make something of it then come back here and we will be able to assist.

If the call with SWR was recorded and can be transcribed then it doesn’t matter what GWR’s staff thinks - if GWR was to attempt to escalate the matter then they would be on rather shaky ground.

Do SWR have the right to do that?

That is somewhat by-the-by: the key point is the extent to which the authorisation from SWR (even if they have no ‘right’ to do it) prevents GWR from taking action against the passenger.

 

[MrJeeves]

The question is that if I were to call GWR and they say "no you can't do this", where would I stand there?

Edit: GWR have said I would be able to get the 19:17 from Exeter Central to Paddington, changing at St David's and Taunton, but did clarify that if SWR told me that I could get the 18:56 (EXC - EXD) and 19:18 (EXD - PAD), then I'm well within my rights to do that (thank god, as it takes an hour less and is a direct service), and even tacked on the fact that SWR's calls are recorded in case I have any issues in doing so. Good job GWR!

I've also put in an SAR to SWR to request a copy of their audio recording of my call (since my recording is only of the very end of the call when I am told I can use my ticket on the service in question, not including me explaining the situation and what ticket I have).

 

[Watershed]

Although as it's not in writing, it could be a bit of 'he said, she said' - hard to prove. An unauthorised recording may not be permissible evidence in eyes of staff. I have found GWR guards pretty unsympathetic in the past with such situations. Difficult situation. I hope the journey goes well!

Whilst making an unauthorised recording may be seen as poor behaviour by some, ultimately it protects the OP in case of any issues down the line.

The question is that if I were to call GWR and they say "no you can't do this", where would I stand there?

SWR's permission would still stand (GWR refuting it wouldn't 'rescind' it).

Edit: GWR have said I would be able to get the 19:17 from Exeter Central to Paddington, changing at St David's and Taunton, but did clarify that if SWR told me that I could get the 18:56 (EXC - EXD) and 19:18 (EXD - PAD), then I'm well within my rights to do that (thank god, as it takes an hour less and is a direct service), and even tacked on the fact that SWR's calls are recorded in case I have any issues in doing so. Good job GWR!

Glad to hear that

It's a shame that SWR were so unhelpful on social media. As with many of these things, sometimes the easiest approach is to ask enough people until you get the answer you want!

 

[MrJeeves]

Whilst making an unauthorised recording may be seen as poor behaviour by some, ultimately it protects the OP in case of any issues down the line.

It's not something I would normally do, but I've heard too many TIR horror stories and "your word vs theirs" situations in the case of railway staff authorising travel against your ticket's validity that I wasn't going to risk it.

I probably should have checked yesterday, but my outbound service was also removed from the timetable, so I'll have to get a different service and change at Basingstoke.

Update:

On board a GWR from Paddington to Penzance as I write this. Was ticket checked and all was a-ok, but I think this is just because of overrunning engineering works on the Brighton Mainline, meaning the OBS endorsed my ticket with "Delays on GTR services - use discretion" (refused to explicitly state rerouteing, though) as well as her contact info, rather than the fact that SWR removed my train from the timetable.

From a PRO perspective, I wonder if GTR were meant to reroute me, considering, had my connection existed at Waterloo, I wouldn't have made it arriving into London Bridge at about 7am. In reality, due to the connection not existing, I think it would still be down to SWR as the next SWR to EXC would have gotten me in 63 mins after my booked itinerary, and I would have made that connection at Waterloo off the GTR service. Also, at the end of the day, all TOCs are responsible for helping me to my final destination anyway.

Either way, let's hope the train back from Exeter is as simple as this!

 

[Class800]

It's not something I would normally do, but I've heard too many TIR horror stories and "your word vs theirs" situations in the case of railway staff authorising travel against your ticket's validity that I wasn't going to risk it.

I probably should have checked yesterday, but my outbound service was also removed from the timetable, so I'll have to get a different service and change at Basingstoke.

Update:

On board a GWR from Paddington to Penzance as I write this. Was ticket checked and all was a-ok, but I think this is just because of overrunning engineering works on the Brighton Mainline, meaning the OBS endorsed my ticket with "Delays on GTR services - use discretion" (refused to explicitly state rerouteing, though) as well as her contact info, rather than the fact that SWR removed my train from the timetable.

From a PRO perspective, I wonder if GTR were meant to reroute me, considering, had my connection existed at Waterloo, I wouldn't have made it arriving into London Bridge at about 7am. In reality, due to the connection not existing, I think it would still be down to SWR as the next SWR to EXC would have gotten me in 63 mins after my booked itinerary, and I would have made that connection at Waterloo off the GTR service. Also, at the end of the day, all TOCs are responsible for helping me to my final destination anyway.

Either way, let's hope the train back from Exeter is as simple as this!

Rare to find anyone on a GTR train except a rare RPI, so well done getting an endorsement. Sounds like it's going OK so far

 

[MrJeeves]

Rare to find anyone on a GTR train except a rare RPI, so well done getting an endorsement. Sounds like it's going OK so far

It was a Southern train from East Coastway to London Bridge. I think all coastway services have OBS/guards for safety reasons. If it was Thameslink, I would have had no chance!

I also chose to do Seatfrog upgrades on both GWR legs, so I've effectively got a First Class return from Paddington to Exeter for ((£9.15 + £13) * 2) about £44. If I didn't upgrade, a £19 return on GWR is an insane deal!

 

[Class800]

It was a Southern train from East Coastway to London Bridge. I think all coastway services have OBS/guards for safety reasons.

If it was Thameslink, I would have had no chance!

That makes sense

 

[Watershed]

It was a Southern train from East Coastway to London Bridge. I think all coastway services have OBS/guards for safety reasons.

If it was Thameslink, I would have had no chance!

Yes, south of Redhill (IIRC), all Southern services other than those confined to the Brighton Mainline must have an OBS rostered, although the train can run without them. If they're formed of a 171 or 313, they must have a guard and will be cancelled or run ECS if there's no guard.

 

[Flying Snail]

Whilst making an unauthorised recording may be seen as poor behaviour by some, ultimately it protects the OP in case of any issues down the line.

There is no such thing as an unauthorised recording. It is legal to record your phone calls and there is no requirement to inform the other party it is being recorded.

Free call recording apps just record all calls in the background and are perfect for this kind of situation where you may need proof that x person said y on day z.

 

[Class800]

There is no such thing as an unauthorised recording. It is legal to record your phone calls and there is no requirement to inform the other party it is being recorded.

Free call recording apps just record all calls in the background and are perfect for this kind of situation where you may need proof that x person said y on day z.

You can record someone else without permission? GDPR? Maybe going OT.

 

[Watershed]

There is no such thing as an unauthorised recording. It is legal to record your phone calls and there is no requirement to inform the other party it is being recorded.

Free call recording apps just record all calls in the background and are perfect for this kind of situation where you may need proof that x person said y on day z.

I'm aware of that; perhaps unauthorised was a slightly unhelpful term to use. I simply meant a recording made without previously obtaining the other party's consent.

Such recordings are, as you say, legal to make - but in some situations there may be limitations on their use (e.g. as evidence in a legal case).

You can record someone else without permission? GDPR? Maybe going OT.

The GDPR doesn't apply to 'purely personal or household activities', which this would fall under.

 

[cslusarc]

Is the United Kingdom (or portions thereof) a one-party consent jurisdiction to recordings like Canada and most US states?

 

[MrJeeves]

Is the United Kingdom (or portions thereof) a one-party consent jurisdiction to recordings like Canada and most US states?

Yes.

 

[Watershed]

Is the United Kingdom (or portions thereof) a one-party consent jurisdiction to recordings like Canada and most US states?

In terms of the legality of making recordings - yes, essentially. In terms of what such recordings can be used for - it's more complicated (and I sure there are similar "asterisks" over there).