Advanced fare, Options when connecting train is cancelled

[bob007]

Hi,

I’ve got an advanced with LNER then on to a TPE train (single booking/purchase).

My connecting train isn’t an advance fare but it’s cancelled and means I’ll arrive over an hour later (2330).

Am I allowed to take an earlier LNER service?

Thanks!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What tickets (price paid after any applicable discount and the ticket type) have you got exactly for these two journey legs and where are you travelling to/from? Is your leg travelling with LNER an off peak/anytime fare?

 

[bob007]

“London Kings Cross to Slaithwaite, Advance Single, 1 adult @ £28.10 (ticket restrictions), (1) (2) (3)”

Restriction code GC

Booked through trainsplit.co

Thanks

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume that the £28.10 fare is an LNER & Connections advance (booked train only) with no railcard discount.

Are you booked on the 1933 from Kings Cross with LNER tonight arriving Leeds 2147 and it's the final leg onward to Slaithwaite (with TPE, the 2206 from Leeds) that's been cancelled?

 

[Watershed]

“London Kings Cross to Slaithwaite, Advance Single, 1 adult @ £28.10 (ticket restrictions), (1) (2) (3)”

Restriction code GC

Booked through trainsplit.co

Thanks

Ok, so you've got a single through ticket (assuming you're not coming from further afield than Kings Cross?). This does simplify things a little, as at least you don't need to argue about split tickets.

As you've told us the delay by waiting for the next train at your interchange station (Leeds, presumably?) would be more than an hour, you're entitled to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity - i.e. to take an earlier train from Kings Cross. TPE, as the operator of the cancelled train that is expected to cause you the delay, are responsible for organising this re-routing (e.g. by giving you an endorsement/permission to travel on an earlier LNER train, or by arranging ticket acceptance with LNER, or by issuing you a new ticket valid on the earlier train).

So you should contact TPE (e.g. on Twitter) to ask them to arrange this re-routing. If they fail or refuse to do so, it's also worth contacting LNER - as, whilst they aren't directly responsible for allowing you to travel on an earlier service, they may still decide to let you do so anyway. If they also say no then it's worthwhile, as a last resort, asking the Train Manager of the earlier LNER service you want to catch. Make sure you do so before the train leaves, rather than 'begging for forgiveness' once it's underway!

And if TPE, LNER and the Train Manager all refuse, make sure you have copies (preferably in writing) of these refusals, and buy a new ticket to cover you for the earlier train from Kings Cross. You'll need to contact TPE after your journey to reclaim the cost of this.

Note that this is all dependent on the delay being 61+ minutes (i.e. more than an hour - 60 minutes doesn't qualify). If the delay is less than that, unfortunately you're not entitled to insist on re-routing and you may just have to 'grin and bear' the resultant delay (though you will at least be entitled to delay compensation as a result).

 

[bob007]

Presume that the £28.10 fare is an LNER & Connections advance (booked train only) with no railcard discount.

Are you booked on the 1933 from Kings Cross with LNER tonight arriving Leeds 2147 and it's the final leg onward to Slaithwaite (with TPE, the 2206 from Leeds) that's been cancelled?

That’s right

Sorry for short replies. On mobile

 

[danielcanning]

Ok, so you've got a single through ticket (assuming you're not coming from further afield than Kings Cross?). This does simplify things a little, as at least you don't need to argue about split tickets.

As you've told us the delay by waiting for the next train at your interchange station (Leeds, presumably?) would be more than an hour, you're entitled to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity - i.e. to take an earlier train from Kings Cross. TPE, as the operator of the cancelled train that is expected to cause you the delay, are responsible for organising this re-routing (e.g. by giving you an endorsement/permission to travel on an earlier LNER train, or by arranging ticket acceptance with LNER, or by issuing you a new ticket valid on the earlier train).

So you should contact TPE (e.g. on Twitter) to ask them to arrange this re-routing. If they fail or refuse to do so, it's also worth contacting LNER - as, whilst they aren't directly responsible for allowing you to travel on an earlier service, they may still decide to let you do so anyway. If they also say no then it's worthwhile, as a last resort, asking the Train Manager of the earlier LNER service you want to catch. Make sure you do so before the train leaves, rather than 'begging for forgiveness' once it's underway!

And if TPE, LNER and the Train Manager all refuse, make sure you have copies (preferably in writing) of these refusals, and buy a new ticket to cover you for the earlier train from Kings Cross. You'll need to contact TPE after your journey to reclaim the cost of this.

Note that this is all dependent on the delay being 61+ minutes (i.e. more than an hour - 60 minutes doesn't qualify). If the delay is less than that, unfortunately you're not entitled to insist on re-routing and you may just have to 'grin and bear' the resultant delay (though you will at least be entitled to delay compensation as a result).

And if you can’t stump up the cash for a full fare single? This is why the advance tickets scheme need to be reformed, or even withdrawn, why should a passenger have to contact multiple companies just to get permission to travel?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@bob007. Are you able to do what @Watershed has just suggested?

Less acceptable alternatives might be to sit around at Leeds for an hour and hope the 2305 TPE from Leeds to Slaithwaite is still running, (and claim 100% Delay Repay from TPE!) or if the LNER train arrives on time, maybe you could change at Leeds for the earlier TPE departure, such as the 2201, which will get you as far as Huddersfield for 2218 (one stop short of Slaithwaite).

 

[Watershed]

And if you can’t stump up the cash for a full fare single? This is why the advance tickets scheme need to be reformed, or even withdrawn, why should a passenger have to contact multiple companies just to get permission to travel?

Advance tickets aren't going to be withdrawn, they are far too much of a moneyspinner. No, the problem here is the lack of passenger protections, both on paper and in practice.

 

[bob007]

How will TPE arrange an endorsement or permission to travel? What will they do if I message on twitter…?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2022 ==

Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2022 ==

Ok, so you've got a single through ticket (assuming you're not coming from further afield than Kings Cross?). This does simplify things a little, as at least you don't need to argue about split tickets.

As you've told us the delay by waiting for the next train at your interchange station (Leeds, presumably?) would be more than an hour, you're entitled to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity - i.e. to take an earlier train from Kings Cross. TPE, as the operator of the cancelled train that is expected to cause you the delay, are responsible for organising this re-routing (e.g. by giving you an endorsement/permission to travel on an earlier LNER train, or by arranging ticket acceptance with LNER, or by issuing you a new ticket valid on the earlier train).

So you should contact TPE (e.g. on Twitter) to ask them to arrange this re-routing. If they fail or refuse to do so, it's also worth contacting LNER - as, whilst they aren't directly responsible for allowing you to travel on an earlier service, they may still decide to let you do so anyway. If they also say no then it's worthwhile, as a last resort, asking the Train Manager of the earlier LNER service you want to catch. Make sure you do so before the train leaves, rather than 'begging for forgiveness' once it's underway!

And if TPE, LNER and the Train Manager all refuse, make sure you have copies (preferably in writing) of these refusals, and buy a new ticket to cover you for the earlier train from Kings Cross. You'll need to contact TPE after your journey to reclaim the cost of this.

Note that this is all dependent on the delay being 61+ minutes (i.e. more than an hour - 60 minutes doesn't qualify). If the delay is less than that, unfortunately you're not entitled to insist on re-routing and you may just have to 'grin and bear' the resultant delay (though you will at least be entitled to delay compensation as a result).

Thank you for the comprehensive reply

 

[Starmill]

How will TPE arrange an endorsement or permission to travel? What will they do if I message on twitter…?

Ultimately, it's up to them to choose whatever method they see as most appropriate.

An obvious example would be for them to contact LNER and ask for a note to be left in the booking office with your surname and travel time. LNER would then stamp your ticket authorising travel.

Of course, if you were to go into the booking office at first contact and hand them your ticket, they may actually be willing to do that for you of their own accord. They will be able to check your journey with live running information so it will be obvious what has happened.

 

[XAM2175]

Note that this is all dependent on the delay being 61+ minutes (i.e. more than an hour - 60 minutes doesn't qualify). If the delay is less than that, unfortunately you're not entitled to insist on re-routing and you may just have to 'grin and bear' the resultant delay (though you will at least be entitled to delay compensation as a result).

PRO entitlements kick in at 60 minutes, not 61.

 

[kermit]

Hi Bob, from my recent experience, contacting TPE customer service via What's App on 07812 223336 works well and gives you a good correspondence trail if Twitter is not your preference. Good luck!

 

[Watershed]

PRO entitlements kick in at 60 minutes, not 61.

It's the entitlement to delay compensation that kicks in after 60 minutes:

Without losing the right of transport, a passenger may request compensation for delays from the railway undertaking if he or she is facing a delay between the places of departure and destination stated on the ticket for which the ticket has not been reimbursed in accordance with Article 16. The minimum compensations for delays shall be as follows:
(a) 25 % of the ticket price for a delay of 60 to 119 minutes,

The entitlement to be re-routed, travel at another date/time or to get a refund kicks in after an anticipated delay of more than 60 minutes, i.e. 61 minutes:

Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes, the passenger shall immediately have the choice between:

It's a confusing and pointless distinction in my view - in the event of a clockface hourly service being cancelled, why should the passenger be entitled to compensation, but not a refund or re-routing? Unfortunately this is the way the law stands!

 

[XAM2175]

It's a confusing and pointless distinction in my view - in the event of a clockface hourly service being cancelled, why should the passenger be entitled to compensation, but not a refund or re-routing? Unfortunately this is the way the law stands!

Ah, I see. The Government guidance has it as a blanket "60 or more":

Guidance on regulation No 1371/2007 on rail passengers' rights and obligations

www.gov.uk

Where there is a reasonable expectation that a delay that will lead to arrival at the final destination 60 minutes or more late, passengers may either choose to have a:

• refund of the fare when the journey will no longer serve the passenger’s originally planned purpose. The refund will include the return journey where appropriate

or

• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity

or

• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience

 

[bob007]

TPE On WhatsApp refused to endorse on earlier LNER service. What a shocker.

 

[Watershed]

TPE On WhatsApp refused to endorse on earlier LNER service. What a shocker.

Ok. You're left in the hands of LNER then, so you may as well ask their social media team, then the ticket office, then the TM. And if all else fails you'll have to buy a new ticket and claim it back, if you don't want to arrive later.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

TPE On WhatsApp refused to endorse on earlier LNER service. What a shocker.

Does ending your journey slightly short at Huddersfield at 2218 (any chance of TPE laying on a taxi, it's got to be cheaper than Delay Repay?) or your arrival at Slaithwaite being delayed an hour (from 2231 to 2335) and you then claiming 100% Delay Repay from TPE potentially work for you?

 

[bob007]

Does ending your journey slightly short at Huddersfield (any chance of TPE laying on a taxi?) or your arrival at Slaithwaite being delayed an hour (from 2231 to 2335) and you then claiming 100% Delay Repay from TPE potentially work for you?

I’m well used to getting taxis from Huddersfied. Tired of it. Would have preferred an earlier train.
Thanks

Zero chance of a taxi as there is a later train

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Zero chance of a taxi as there is a later train

Not ideal, but the worst case situation seems to be that you've effectively now got a free journey up North tonight.

 

[bob007]

Ok. You're left in the hands of LNER then, so you may as well ask their social media team, then the ticket office, then the TM. And if all else fails you'll have to buy a new ticket and claim it back, if you don't want to arrive later.

The staff member at the ticket office at KGX smiled and said “the great thing about privatisation is that we don’t have to let you on an earlier train”

He was of course happy to sell me a new ticket

 

[Starmill]

any chance of TPE laying on a taxi, it's got to be cheaper than Delay Repay?

In my experience, it's usually their strongly preferred option to ask the customer to use a train if there is one over ordering a taxi, even if this would take their compensation liability over the threshold at which the taxi is the cheaper option.

 

[Watershed]

The staff member at the ticket office at KGX smiled and said “the great thing about privatisation is that we don’t have to let you on an earlier train”

He was of course happy to sell me a new ticket

Charming - worth a complaint in my view, as that sort of attitude is really not on. Last chance is the TM then. I suppose you could ask TPE to arrange a special stop order on a following service from Leeds, but I doubt they'll agree to do so, seeing as it's not the last train of the day.

 

[Starmill]

The staff member at the ticket office at KGX smiled and said “the great thing about privatisation is that we don’t have to let you on an earlier train”

He was of course happy to sell me a new ticket

That's very odd. Especially because if the first train is the one that's cancelled, it's likely they are under an obligation to allow travel on their previous service, and certain that they are if the delay is over an hour otherwise. Obviously that doesn't apply to this case but it's very odd.

Of course, you could have bought the ticket under duress and then if TPE refuse to pay your costs, as is likely, take them to the Ombudsman. But that's an awful lot of hassle, and you'd receive no compensation for the hours of your life wasted on dealing with the complaints process.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2022 ==

Charming, worth a complaint in my view as that sort of attitude is really not on. Last chance is the TM then. I suppose you could ask TPE to arrange a special stop order on a following service from Leeds, but I doubt they'll agree to do so, seeing as it's not the last train of the day.

I agree it could be worth complaining to LNER on the grounds of the conduct but more importantly that they chose not to respect the meaning of Condition 28. As well as complaining to TPE that they didn't adhere to the Rights & Obligations Regulations.

It's amazing that both have been hot topics on these pages recently, and the customer in this case was treated precisely as if by the very people posting who either argue against the existence of the rules, or suggest increasingly unreasonable contortions of interpretation just so that they can 'win' a discussion.

 

[KGX]

The staff member at the ticket office at KGX smiled and said “the great thing about privatisation is that we don’t have to let you on an earlier train”

He was of course happy to sell me a new ticket

What a bizarre comment. Still living in 1994. You should complain.

 

[bob007]

Thanks everyone.

It’s just standard levels of customer service for 2022. TPE snowflakes hide behind their social media policy and block you the moment you get a bit annoyed at their telling you what they can’t help you with.

Anyway. Life’s too short to get stressed. I’m on the train now and I’ll get home when I get home

 

[bakerstreet]

The contents of this thread makes for such a disappointing read.

It’s also a shame that on this occasion this thread perhaps wasn’t seen by the resident LNER contributors whose user names escape me.

On a more general point, it’s interesting that posting a good value ticket is noted very quickly and a negative easement often introduced, but passenger inconvenience or peril does not appear to elicit the same speedy and fulsome response.

This would be a perfect opportunity for those same readers in the industry to improve the customer experience, even if they are too late to help the OP.

Look at the attempts the OP made to find a solution to a problem which was not the passenger’s fault. And result? No No and No.
I despair.

To the OP, good luck with the rest of the journey.

 

[kermit]

The staff member at the ticket office at KGX smiled and said “the great thing about privatisation is that we don’t have to let you on an earlier train”

He was of course happy to sell me a new ticket

That's the kind of comment that can be significantly affected by the tone of delivery. If it was a (possibly unwise) attempt at a joke, it would be a different thing from a matter-of-fact tone.

 

[yorkie]

The contents of this thread makes for such a disappointing read...

Indeed, see also the following thread:

Anti-customer behaviour by Avanti

Unfortunately the current rules aren't worded strongly enough to prevent train companies getting away with incredibly poor service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2022 ==

Not ideal, but the worst case situation seems to be that you've effectively now got a free journey up North tonight.

That's what I would generally have done; take the booked train, visit Wetherspoons in Leeds and claimed 100% delay repay.

But of course there are times when people need to be somewhere and Delay Repay doesn't cut it, and the rail industry really does treat such people incredibly badly at times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2022 ==

The staff member at the ticket office at KGX smiled and said “the great thing about privatisation is that we don’t have to let you on an earlier train”

He was of course happy to sell me a new ticket

Next time, if you can access the platforms, it's worth asking the Guard; they tend to be a rather more customer-focussed than ticket office staff in my experience (this is a huge generalisation and is not uniformly the case!)

You can claim a 100% refund on the original ticket.

How much was the replacement ticket?

 

[bob007]

I didn’t buy a new ticket @yorkie, I just waited. Not a chance in hell will I risk not getting that back.

That's the kind of comment that can be significantly affected by the tone of delivery. If it was a (possibly unwise) attempt at a joke, it would be a different thing from a matter-of-fact tone.

I don’t think he was capable of making a joke.