An idea for possible service provision on the ECML between Newcastle and Edinburgh post-HS2

[PTR 444]

Assuming HS2 phase 2a is completed in full and fast London - Edinburgh are diverted away from the ECML to the WCML, the only high speed trains to use the ECML will be those which terminate at Newcastle. This begs the question as to what the service provision beyond there could look like with fewer long-distance intercity trains.

Firstly, Edinburgh would still merit a direct link to Leeds and Sheffield, while the ECML through Northumberland would remain the fastest route between those places. I would have 1tph to each of Leeds and Sheffield (with the Sheffield service taking the faster route via Doncaster as opposed to via Leeds). These two tph should be the fast trains between Edinburgh and Newcastle, with one calling only at Berwick Upon Tweed and the other only at Alnmouth.

Secondly, even with the fast London - Edinburgh trains diverted via HS2, there will still be demand for direct service to the capital from Northumberland towns. I would therefore have an hourly ECML semi-fast from London to Edinburgh calling at more places than LNER does now. North of Newcastle, it would serve Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick and Dunbar.

Thirdly, with fewer trains operating than today, I would make one giant leap to create a regular stopping service between Newcastle and Edinburgh. This would call at every single intermediate station and make use of passing loops at Belford and Dunbar to allow faster trains to overtake. I’ve not attempted to timetable this in with the fast services but if it isn’t possible, then an alternative option could be to split the service at Berwick Upon Tweed.

All of the above is assuming that East Coast Trains (Lumo) are no longer running by this point. If they are however, that will be an extra path in addition to the above and in this scenario it may be worth merging the separate Leeds and Sheffield services into one (via Wakefield) to keep track capacity free for the stopper.

 

[Purple Orange]

I believe that the Edinburgh services won't divert until phase 2b is open, but with the risk to the Golborne link, it might still be faster for Edinburgh services to run via Crewe still?

Anyway, the ECML might still only have capacity for 6 fast services each hour post HS2 North of York to Newcastle. So really it's a case of asking what should those 6 services be and which ones continue to Edinburgh. A Glasgow connection also should not be ruled out. I'd stick with a pattern if having 3 terminate in Newcastle and 3 continue north.

• London - Newcastle
• London - Edinburgh
• Liverpool - Edinburgh via Manchester Victoria and Leeds
• Liverpool - Newcastle
• Birmingham - Edinburgh via Sheffield and Leeds
• Birmingham - Newcastle via Doncaster

 

[mike57]

I would have 1tph to each of Leeds and Sheffield (with the Sheffield service taking the faster route via Doncaster as opposed to via Leeds)

I must admit I find the current obsession with routing (almost) everything via Leeds and Wakefield a pain. If you are joining the XC services at York or north of the time penalty is around 25 mins, not insignificant as well as the fact that York - Leeds has a difficult mix of stopping and fast services which means there is a higher likelyhood of delay. I assume these services you propose would carry on to Birmingham and the South and West, the same as current services. TPE also have aspirations to run Liverpool - Edinburgh via ECML, although currently the service is suspended as far as I can see. As to the point of the TPE service north of Newcastle, I am not sure what purpose it serves, particularly as it has to run on diesel power.

 

[cle]

I would think a stopping, Scotrail service to Berwick more likely. And then the same to Newcastle - both might prefer more than 1tph to offer commuter services. I don't see cross-Berwick as a worthy flow for the slower services.

You'll still likely need service to Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, at least 2 to York, 1-2 to Doncaster/Peterborough as today. Stevenage will still exist too. And those ECML places will need fasts to Kings Cross. I can't see it changing wildly on the ECML other than the actual London-Edinburgh users and some slower patterns north of Newcastle.

 

[PTR 444]

I must admit I find the current obsession with routing (almost) everything via Leeds and Wakefield a pain. If you are joining the XC services at York or north of the time penalty is around 25 mins, not insignificant as well as the fact that York - Leeds has a difficult mix of stopping and fast services which means there is a higher likelyhood of delay. I assume these services you propose would carry on to Birmingham and the South and West, the same as current services.

No. These would be the remnants of the XC South West/South Coast to North East services, but my vision is to carve these up in the Leeds area. While there would be some overlap, generally services from the South would no longer extend north of York, and services from the North East/Scotland would no longer extend south of Sheffield.

I would think a stopping, Scotrail service to Berwick more likely. And then the same to Newcastle - both might prefer more than 1tph to offer commuter services. I don't see cross-Berwick as a worthy flow for the slower services.

During the peaks maybe, but I’m not sure if there’s that much demand for more than 1tph as most of the Northumberland stations don’t serve a huge population base.

You'll still likely need service to Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, at least 2 to York, 1-2 to Doncaster/Peterborough as today. Stevenage will still exist too. And those ECML places will need fasts to Kings Cross. I can't see it changing wildly on the ECML other than the actual London-Edinburgh users and some slower patterns north of Newcastle.

South of Newcastle, definitely yes. This thread is more about what to do north of Newcastle post-HS2, unless you’re suggesting all of the above places warrant a direct service to Alnmouth and Berwick

 

[mike57]

No. These would be the remnants of the XC South West/South Coast to North East services, but my vision is to carve these up in the Leeds area. While there would be some overlap, generally services from the South would no longer extend north of York, and services from the North East/Scotland would no longer extend south of Sheffield.

But there is currently I would suggest a significant flow from the stations between Newcastle and York to Birmingham and beyond, Its a journey I have done many times and Birmingham seems to be the destination of a large number of travellers on current XC services. These passengers are going to be faced with a change at either Leeds, York or Sheffield with the unreliability and time penalty that the change introduces. Dont get me wrong, current XC services are horrible, overcrowded and nasty claustrophobic smelly rolling stock, but the problems actually indicate that there is demand for South and West to North East that is higher than current capacity, and splitting in Yorkshire isnt going to help.

 

[PTR 444]

But there is currently I would suggest a significant flow from the stations between Newcastle and York to Birmingham and beyond, Its a journey I have done many times and Birmingham seems to be the destination of a large number of travellers on current XC services. These passengers are going to be faced with a change at either Leeds, York or Sheffield with the unreliability and time penalty that the change introduces. Dont get me wrong, current XC services are horrible, overcrowded and nasty claustrophobic smelly rolling stock, but the problems actually indicate that there is demand for South and West to North East that is higher than current capacity, and splitting in Yorkshire isnt going to help.

This is a flow which will be catered for by NPR trains between Newcastle and Birmingham via Manchester in the future. Yes I get that they will not continue further south like XC does now, but even with a change at Birmingham I expect the journey time via NPR/HS2 would still be quicker than it is now.

 

[mike57]

would still be quicker than it is now.

I wonder, even with the current 'all via Leeds' time penalty journey time is around 3h 40m for Darlington - Cheltenham (just an example). If the via Doncaster service was reinstated that would come down to about 3h 15m. Assuming that the only sections that are significantly faster are Leeds - Manchester - Birmingham, and that its further, and you have to change in Birmingham, Curzon Str - New Street walk, + connection time, I dont think you would be quicker, and it is going to be far less convenient

 

[PTR 444]

I wonder, even with the current 'all via Leeds' time penalty journey time is around 3h 40m for Darlington - Cheltenham (just an example). If the via Doncaster service was reinstated that would come down to about 3h 15m. Assuming that the only sections that are significantly faster are Leeds - Manchester - Birmingham, and that its further, and you have to change in Birmingham, Curzon Str - New Street walk, + connection time, I dont think you would be quicker, and it is going to be far less convenient

We will have to wait and see. If enough people use them, they might render the XC services obsolete in their current form. Or they might stay but have additional stops added to them to make them slower than the “fast” trains via HS2/NPR.

 

[EastisECML]

To complicate things a bit further the new station at Reston will have platforms long enough for azumas so presumably they're expecting some LNER calls there.

 

[PTR 444]

To complicate things a bit further the new station at Reston will have platforms long enough for azumas so presumably they're expecting some LNER calls there.

Surely this would have been an afterthought after it was discovered that you can’t thread a Berwick - Edinburgh stopper inbetween the existing services. There’s no reason for intercity services to stop there for any other purpose, and after HS2 diverts the bulk of London - Edinburgh traffic onto the WCML there should be room to run a proper stopping service along this stretch of the ECML anyway.

 

[cle]

No. These would be the remnants of the XC South West/South Coast to North East services, but my vision is to carve these up in the Leeds area. While there would be some overlap, generally services from the South would no longer extend north of York, and services from the North East/Scotland would no longer extend south of Sheffield.


During the peaks maybe, but I’m not sure if there’s that much demand for more than 1tph as most of the Northumberland stations don’t serve a huge population base.

South of Newcastle, definitely yes. This thread is more about what to do north of Newcastle post-HS2, unless you’re suggesting all of the above places warrant a direct service to Alnmouth and Berwick

Well Edinburgh to Leeds, Sheffield, York, Peterborough, Doncaster - plus other places I didn't mention - Derby, Darlington etc... would all still run via Newcastle and so could comprise many of the services in this thread.

Only Birmingham and London to Edinburgh will be impacted by HS2. These other places will still be legacy ECML. Manchester is better via the WCML and Liverpool would be too obviously - albeit not currently serving Edinburgh, but I know TPE may persist for other reasons.

 

[PTR 444]

Well Edinburgh to Leeds, Sheffield, York, Peterborough, Doncaster - plus other places I didn't mention - Derby, Darlington etc... would all still run via Newcastle and so could comprise many of the services in this thread.

So is the plan now to retain those XC services once HS2 is fully open? My proposed Edinburgh - Leeds/Sheffield is just a remnant of that, but I’d have assumed there wouldn’t be much demand for it to run south of there with the NPR Newcastle - Birmingham service operating.

Edinburgh to Doncaster and Peterborough can be achieved by keeping one out of 2 LNER services north of Newcastle. The other shouldn’t really need to go beyond there with HS2 taking the bulk of London to Edinburgh traffic. This would allow more flexibility to run a proper stopping service between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Only Birmingham and London to Edinburgh will be impacted by HS2. These other places will still be legacy ECML. Manchester is better via the WCML and Liverpool would be too obviously - albeit not currently serving Edinburgh, but I know TPE may persist for other reasons.

Of course post-HS2 the fastest Edinburgh to Birmingham and Manchester services would continue to use the WCML as they do now. Liverpool only goes via ECML as it is really an extension of a Newcastle service, but there’s nothing to stop anyone adding an additional regular LIV - EDB service via the WCML.

 

[EastisECML]

Surely this would have been an afterthought after it was discovered that you can’t thread a Berwick - Edinburgh stopper inbetween the existing services. There’s no reason for intercity services to stop there for any other purpose, and after HS2 diverts the bulk of London - Edinburgh traffic onto the WCML there should be room to run a proper stopping service along this stretch of the ECML anyway.

From the Border Telegraph:

Following its opening, Reston station will be managed by ScotRail.

East coast main line services will include seven trains each way per day operated by TransPennine Express and one each way per day operated by LNER.

 

[PTR 444]

From the Border Telegraph:

I knew about this already, which is why I brought up the absurdity of the situation in post #11

 

[cle]

Edinburgh to Doncaster and Peterborough can be achieved by keeping one out of 2 LNER services north of Newcastle. The other shouldn’t really need to go beyond there with HS2 taking the bulk of London to Edinburgh traffic. This would allow more flexibility to run a proper stopping service between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Those stations (plus York!) and Stevenage, Newark, Darlington, Durham...and the places which feed into them - to Newcastle and Edinburgh - FAR FAR outweigh the potential ridership of a local stopping service. The ECML does far more than just serve London - it is very different to the WCML out of Euston in that regard. So aside from stopping patterns being tweaked and ex-London journeys being slower, I don't see huge changes for the sake of a sparsely populated stretch.

I don't think you should assume NPR is happening. Or HS2 beyond Crewe, it seems. I doubt it'll get to East Midlands Parkway either. Leeds, York and Newcastle will still need fast ECML services to London - anything fast to York and Newcastle will still be reasonably nippy to Edinburgh, unless it becomes all-main-stations north of there - which is plausible.

Of course post-HS2 the fastest Edinburgh to Birmingham and Manchester services would continue to use the WCML as they do now. Liverpool only goes via ECML as it is really an extension of a Newcastle service, but there’s nothing to stop anyone adding an additional regular LIV - EDB service via the WCML.

I agree. I'd much rather Manchester have an hourly to Glasgow and hourly to Edinburgh. Barrow/Windermere might need to be Preston shuttles, or into Victoria and onto a diesel route like Calder. And Liverpool should have at least bi-hourly to Scotland, alternating between them. There is definitely demand, and flights have largely fallen away with Flybe dying. And Birmingham-Scotland will migrate to HS2 and also see more competitive journey times.

I'm not sure how much splitting and joining we should have at the likes of Carlisle and Carstairs - HS2 will already bring a fair bit back. And Preston had been mentioned for Liverpool-Scotland joining with Manc services.

 

[EastisECML]

Probably the most likely source of more passengers on the ECML in Northumberland is Killingworth, Dudley, Cramlington, Morpeth and Pegswood. So doubling the local Morpeth service should be a priority. It would be nice if we could have fast trains running on a new line from North Tyneside to Acklington to allow for enhanced local services.

North of Morpeth I think the stations with longer platforms will just continue being shared by IC services. So Alnmouth, Berwick, Reston, Dunbar and presumably East Linton. I can't see a stopping service being all that attractive the further it goes. So many stations miles away from small towns and villages.

Maybe the TPE Newcastle to Edinburgh service could alternate between calling at Pegswood & Widdrington and Acklington & Chathill alongside regular stops at Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Reston, Dunbar and East Linton to try and balance speed with some sort of semi fast service.

 

[MattRat]

Trains on the WCML go the wrong direction to go north after Edinburgh. As long as services north of Edinburgh from England remain, so will ECML services that stop at Edinburgh.

 

[railjock]

Trains on the WCML go the wrong direction to go north after Edinburgh. As long as services north of Edinburgh from England remain, so will ECML services that stop at Edinburgh.

I assume a ‘reversal’ at Edinburgh Waverley to go north isn’t a big problem?

 

[Purple Orange]

I assume a ‘reversal’ at Edinburgh Waverley to go north isn’t a big problem?

Given how many people lose their mind at the notion of a reversal at Manchester, I suspect many on here will find it a problem, even if passengers by and large are not affected.

 

[adrock1976]

My suggestion is as follows:

London KX - Edinburgh Waverley ICEC every 60 minutes, calling Peterborough, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington Bank Top, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (every 2 hours), Alnmouth for Alnwick (every 2 hours opposite to Morpeth), Berwick upon Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley. 2 hourly extensions to Haymarket, Motherwell, and Glasgow Central in the opposite hours to the Inverness and Aberdeen extensions. Path 1 YRK - NCL

South West Region - Edinburgh Waverley via Birmingham and Doncaster ICXC every 60 minutes, calling points from Doncaster being York, Darlington Bank Top, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth (every 2 hours), Alnmouth for Alnwick, Berwick upon Tweed (every 2 hours opposite to Morpeth), Reston, and Edinburgh Waverley. No Dundee/Aberdeen/Glasgow extensions. This would run in the opposite half hour from the London KX between Doncaster and Edinburgh. Path 2 YRK - NCL

Liverpool Lime Street - Newcastle Central/Middlesbrough via Manchester Vic and Huddersfield Regional Express every 30 minutes, calling 1-2 stations LIV - MCV, then Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, then 1tph to each of Newcastle and Middlesbrough/Redcar/Saltburn calling Darlington Bank Top, Durham, Chester-le-Street, Newcastle Central, or Yarm, Eaglescliffe, Thornaby, Middlesbrough, and onwards to Redcar or Saltburn. Path 3 YRK - NCL

London KX - Newcastle Central Tyne Shuttle ICEC every 30 minutes, calling York, Northallerton (1tph), Darlington Bank Top (1tph opposite to the Northallerton call), and Newcastle Central. Paths 4 and 5 YRK - NCL

For the section south of Doncaster, the London KX - Leeds White Rose Shuttle ICEC every 30 minutes would call Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham (1tph), Newark Northgate (1tph opposite to the Grantham call), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, and Leeds, with the long standing extensions to Skipton and Bradford Forster Square maintained (Harrogate and Huddersfield extensions binned, with the Harrogate Loop being given the Merseyrail treatment). The Lincoln Central would be doubled in frequency to every 60 minutes, calling Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Lincoln Central, and extensions onwards to Cleethorpes.

Grantham - Retford would be covered by the London KX - Hull IC services, jointly operated by ICEC and Open Access (if still in existence) providing a joint frequency of every 60 minutes.

The sixth path YRK - NCL left vacant for open access (some hours) or service recovery.

 

[JamesT]

Given how many people lose their mind at the notion of a reversal at Manchester, I suspect many on here will find it a problem, even if passengers by and large are not affected.

Avoid the reversal, send the trains round the South Sub to get them pointing in the right direction.