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"Any Permitted Route" doesn't mean "any route"

visitorsgrass

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I bought an anytime, any route permitted single from Welwyn Garden City to High Wycombe. Wanting to take the long way (I know it's the longer way, don't have to remind me), I was told I couldn't do my change over from Euston to Moor Street. When I looked at the T&C, it doesn't say you can't, it just says if you have a ticket that states you have to use certain routes...you follow that. Can anyone help me with finding where it says although the ticket is any route is permitted, I can't travel to/through certain stations?
 
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I'm pretty sure your ticket says any permitted route, not any route permitted, the order of the words in that sentence is the key to the difference in meaning
 

jfollows

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"Any permitted" in the context of a Welwyn-High Wycombe ticket means via London and then according to map GC at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps which pretty much means direct trains Marylebone to High Wycombe. Or you can go via Ealing if you want. But that’s about it.
1710862858699.png
As glasgowniteowl said, you can travel on any route that is permitted, and the routeing guide defines permitted routes, and you can't go anywhere near Birmingham on a Welwyn-High Wycombe ticket.
 
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Enthusiast

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I don't quite understand. Surely the simplest route is up to Kings Cross, along to Marylebone and then the Chiltern service out from there.

What "longer" route do you have in mind and where do Euston and Moor Street fit in? Are you suggesting you should be permitted to travel Welwyn-Kings Cross-Euston-New Street-Moor Street-High Wycombe?
 

visitorsgrass

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"Any permitted" in the context of a Welwyn-High Wycombe ticket means via London and then according to map GC at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps which pretty much means direct trains Marylebone to High Wycombe. Only.
View attachment 154526
As glasgowniteowl said, you can travel on any route that is permitted, and the routeing guide defines permitted routes, and you can't go anywhere near Birmingham on a Welwyn-High Wycombe ticket.
This is the most helpful, thank you!

My trip was from Welwyn to Highbury & Islington, then I caught the tube to Euston.

Again, I know I could have gone to Kings X and changed a time or two...but nobody could really explain why "any" doesn't actually mean "any".
 

JB_B

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It's not really a case of : "Any" doesn't mean "any" ( as per the thread title)

but rather

"Any Permitted Route" doesn't mean "any route"

Hopefully it's clear to the OP why that's not very surprising.
 

Haywain

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nobody could really explain why "any" doesn't actually mean "any".
Any Permitted Route means "any of the routes that are permitted" and not "any route is permitted" - there's a very big difference.
 
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mangyiscute

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I do think that the railways could do better with the naming scheme, since it is very difficult to actually work out what the permitted routes are. In most cases, it's left down to users to either try and find their journey as an itinerary from a journey planner or just use common sense and hope that there isn't any daft routeing issues (I'm sure someone knows a pair of stations where the most obvious route isn't valid)
 

hkstudent

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I think OP got caught up in the interchange between Euston LU and Euston Square LU, which is a out of station interchange.

In terms of Cross London journey involving London Underground, there are no concept of permitted route but reasonable route which often subject to various interpretations.

I think the LU gateline colleague OP encountered considered the route be off route from the usual one which is via Kings Cross/Moorgate then Circle/H&C line to Baker Street or Edgware Road.
 
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Jan Mayen

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"Any permitted" in the context of a Welwyn-High Wycombe ticket means via London and then according to map GC at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps which pretty much means direct trains Marylebone to High Wycombe. Or you can go via Ealing if you want. But that’s about it.
View attachment 154526
As glasgowniteowl said, you can travel on any route that is permitted, and the routeing guide defines permitted routes, and you can't go anywhere near Birmingham on a Welwyn-High Wycombe ticket.
Have I understood this map correctly? It shows the direct route Marylebone to High Wycombe. Another route is Paddington- West Ealing- Greenford then High Wycombe (can you use London Underground Greenford to South Ruslip?). But there is a third route that goes from London to a green dot. Not sure where that is. Can anyone elaborate, please?
 

30907

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I think OP got caught up in the interchange between Euston LU and Euston Square LU, which is a out of station interchange.

I think the LU gateline colleague OP encountered considered the route be off route from the usual one which is via Kings Cross/Moorgate then Circle/H&C line to Baker Street or Edgware Road.
Or considered that the OP was resuming the journey rather than interchanging, and you can't enter the system twice on a + (cross-London) ticket?
 

AlterEgo

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Have I understood this map correctly? It shows the direct route Marylebone to High Wycombe. Another route is Paddington- West Ealing- Greenford then High Wycombe (can you use London Underground Greenford to South Ruslip?). But there is a third route that goes from London to a green dot. Not sure where that is. Can anyone elaborate, please?
Willesden Jct.
 

Kenny G

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Looking at Route GC. Does that mean I could buy a London to Leamington Spa open rtn via High Wycombe and come back with a stop over in Oxford?
 

jfollows

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Looking at Route GC. Does that mean I could buy a London to Leamington Spa open rtn via High Wycombe and come back with a stop over in Oxford?
Yes you can, but not based on map GC alone.

If you want to look up permitted routes, don't start with a map, but instead use the routeing guide to define which maps are applicable.

In the case of London to Leamington, these are
  • EB + RB
  • GC
  • RG + RB
and these define routes from - essentially - Euston, Marylebone and Paddington respectively.

So you can travel out via High Wycombe (map GC) and return via Oxford (map combination RB + RG in the return direction).

The maps are at the end point of the process, effectively, if you need to look up routes which aren't automatically valid such as the shortest route and any route taken by direct trains.

A stop over in Oxford will also be conditioned by the ticket that you hold; it's the exception that break of journey isn't allowed, but there may be route or operator restrictions. In the case of London to Leamington there's a "VIA BANBURY" ticket which would exclude Euston but not Oxford (and also, technically, adds map combination GW+BB to the mix, although this doesn't actually add any additional routes as it happens), and there's an "ANY PERMITTED" ticket which would allow all three routes.

EDIT For the original poster, if "Birmingham Moor Street" was really what was intended - and that's not totally clear - the point was that the valid route "any permitted" from Welwyn to High Wycombe is via London, and then the London to High Wycombe leg is only valid on routes shown on map GC. Which is essentially the obvious one from Marylebone but Paddington-Ealing-High Wycombe is also valid.
 
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