Any reason todays Azumas ran on diesel?

[jmr82]

Hi all, had a great journey back from Edinburgh today on a 9 car azuma from aberdeen to london. Noticed most of the journey diesel engines revving up and down clearly powering the train all the time i was on it and it felt more sluggish than on the way there which had some wicked acceleration, assumed there may have been a problem with our train but when returning back to york noticed 2 other lner azumas pull way definitely
with the diesel engines running.

Any reason for this other than line failure?

Intrigued!

 

[TheBigD]

There are are some Sunday LNER trains that are booked on diesel North of Newcastle due to the OHLE limitations.

On Sunday afternoons there are are more LNER services than weekdays. Most of the afternoon there are 3 trains an hour to London, hence the restrictions.

 

[DanNCL]

Lumo running on electric won’t help the power supply issues.

 

[800001]

There are are some Sunday LNER trains that are booked on diesel North of Newcastle due to the OHLE limitations.

On Sunday afternoons there are are more LNER services than weekdays. Most of the afternoon there are 3 trains an hour to London, hence the restrictions.

Correct, there is normally 3-4 in each direction that run in diesel between Longniddry and Chathill.

Hi all, had a great journey back from Edinburgh today on a 9 car azuma from aberdeen to london. Noticed most of the journey diesel engines revving up and down clearly powering the train all the time i was on it and it felt more sluggish than on the way there which had some wicked acceleration, assumed there may have been a problem with our train but when returning back to york noticed 2 other lner azumas pull way definitely
with the diesel engines running.

Any reason for this other than line failure?

Intrigued!

With the exception of the few services between Edinburgh and Newcastle, there were no other LNER services operating in diesel south of Newcastle, with exception of planned diversions via Hambleton heading to Leeds.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As well as the LNER limitations on sundays TPE also run all services in diesel between Alnmouth and Edinburgh as a result of the power limitations. An upgrade of the feeder station at Marshall Meadows is required. Not sure on progress of this however I understand National Grid need to upgrade power supplies in the area first before the feeder station can be upgraded. TPE also had to run on diesel on Sundays only between Durham and York but since Hutton Bonville feeder station was upgraded this is no longer the case.

now the daft thing here is when TPE were running ECS to route learn and traction train the trains were allowed to run on electric all the way to Edinburgh At the time LNER services were a mix of mk4 and 80x so maybe that made a difference to the traction power demands but since TPE started running passenger services using 802s diesel mode was introduced as a requirement. 185s have allegedly been barred from running north of newcastle due to the 100mph top speed but I would argue a 3 engined 185 would keep time pretty well compared to an 802 on diesel. The speed difference however is very noticeable south of Durham and a 185 wont keep to time if deputising for an 802 but they will give it a damn good try!
802 on diesel there is a noticeable performance drop compared to electric and I have argued on this very forum that an 802 on diesel will not hit 125mph on the ECML maxing out at 122 has always been my observation south of Darlington and performance wise the timetable will take a 1-2 minute hit.

On another note trains departing Newcastle via High Level Bridge also have to operate on diesel. Apparently a paperwork hiccup means 80x stock have never been cleared to operate on electric across the bridge and through Gateshead. However Lumo 803s are cleared. Go figure…..

 

[800001]

As well as the LNER limitations on sundays TPE also run all services in diesel between Alnmouth and Edinburgh as a result of the power limitations. An upgrade of the feeder station at Marshall Meadows is required. Not sure on progress of this however I understand National Grid need to upgrade power supplies in the area first before the feeder station can be upgraded. TPE also had to run on diesel on Sundays only between Durham and York but since Hutton Bonville feeder station was upgraded this is no longer the case.

now the daft thing here is when TPE were running ECS to route learn and traction train the trains were allowed to run on electric all the way to Edinburgh At the time LNER services were a mix of mk4 and 80x so maybe that made a difference to the traction power demands but since TPE started running passenger services using 802s diesel mode was introduced as a requirement. 185s have allegedly been barred from running north of newcastle due to the 100mph top speed but I would argue a 3 engined 185 would keep time pretty well compared to an 802 on diesel. The speed difference however is very noticeable south of Durham and a 185 wont keep to time if deputising for an 802 but they will give it a damn good try!
802 on diesel there is a noticeable performance drop compared to electric and I have argued on this very forum that an 802 on diesel will not hit 125mph on the ECML maxing out at 122 has always been my observation south of Darlington and performance wise the timetable will take a 1-2 minute hit.

On another note trains departing Newcastle via High Level Bridge also have to operate on diesel. Apparently a paperwork hiccup means 80x stock have never been cleared to operate on electric across the bridge and through Gateshead. However Lumo 803s are cleared. Go figure…..

Are you sure about the high level bridge having to be in diesel? News to me, never heard of that restriction, and it’s a restriction I should be aware of in the job I do!.

 

[tbtc]

Do these services booked on diesel for long durations have to be timed differently (from those rubbing on electric mode)?

Or do they hope/expect them to match electric mode (even though 800s were not initially planned to run on diesel beyond something like 100mph?)

 

[Esker-pades]

Do these services booked on diesel for long durations have to be timed differently (from those rubbing on electric mode)?

Or do they hope/expect them to match electric mode (even though 800s were not initially planned to run on diesel beyond something like 100mph?)

Yes, there is a change of timing load at the appropriate locations.

 

[Watershed]

Do these services booked on diesel for long durations have to be timed differently (from those rubbing on electric mode)?

Or do they hope/expect them to match electric mode (even though 800s were not initially planned to run on diesel beyond something like 100mph?)

Yes, there are separate timing loads for 80x on electric and 80x on diesel. Any train timed at Longniddry/Chathill APCO will be changing over to/from diesel for the Marshall Meadows feeder section.

 

[zero]

now the daft thing here is when TPE were running ECS to route learn and traction train the trains were allowed to run on electric all the way to Edinburgh

Maybe a stupid question, but does running ECS use noticeably less electricity than running full of passengers and luggage, or does it not really make much of a difference?

 

[tbtc]

Yes, there is a change of timing load at the appropriate locations.

Yes, there are separate timing loads for 80x on electric and 80x on diesel. Any train timed at Longniddry/Chathill APCO will be changing over to/from diesel for the Marshall Meadows feeder section.

Thanks both for confirming, must cause some headaches for planners but glad to see that they are appropriately timed (and the driver isn’t expected to match the 125mph electric mode on a diagram that can’t fully use the wires - I know not all of the ECML is 125 mph but fascinating how these things are worked out/ organised)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Maybe a stupid question, but does running ECS use noticeably less electricity than running full of passengers and luggage, or does it not really make much of a difference?

No, think it was more to do with the overall power draw across the route section at the time was lower as 91s were still operating and azumas were only just being introduced

 

[800001]

Do these services booked on diesel for long durations have to be timed differently (from those rubbing on electric mode)?

Or do they hope/expect them to match electric mode (even though 800s were not initially planned to run on diesel beyond something like 100mph?)

As the section they run on Diesel engines for is north of Newcastle, that line isn’t at 125mph speeds, I think between Newcastle and Edinburgh the line speed is 100mph for the majority of the way, so running in diesel mode has no impact on operational performance at all.

 

[Watershed]

As the section they run on Diesel engines for is north of Newcastle, that line isn’t at 125mph speeds, I think between Newcastle and Edinburgh the line speed is 100mph for the majority of the way, so running in diesel mode has no impact on operational performance at all.

Sorry, that's just not true. There's quite a lot of it that's more than 100mph, and diesel 80x's struggle to reach even that speed. Even more so if one of the generators is isolated, which isn't uncommon.

Most schedules have plenty of pathing and other allowances so they will still run more or less on time even on diesel mode, but some are tightly timed and therefore delays do accumulate.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Are you sure about the high level bridge having to be in diesel? News to me, never heard of that restriction, and it’s a restriction I should be aware of in the job I do!.

9M14 06:40 NCL-LIV departs off 5/6 via High Level Bridge on diesel, and has to stay on Diesel until Chester-Le-St before it can power changeover, there being no APCO available. Frustrating for passengers theres also 1V48 06:40 NCL-BRI which departs via King Edward Bridge and we often get York and Leeds pax who should have been on the XC on the TPE service and vice versa

 

[800001]

9M14 06:40 NCL-LIV departs off 5/6 via High Level Bridge on diesel, and has to stay on Diesel until Chester-Le-St before it can power changeover, there being no APCO available. Frustrating for passengers theres also 1V48 06:40 NCL-BRI which departs via King Edward Bridge and we often get York and Leeds pax who should have been on the XC on the TPE service and vice versa

I don’t know reasons for that then, but LNER when they run azumas via the High Level bridge, they run using electric, with exception of the Sunderland service.

 

[DanNCL]

On another note trains departing Newcastle via High Level Bridge also have to operate on diesel. Apparently a paperwork hiccup means 80x stock have never been cleared to operate on electric across the bridge and through Gateshead. However Lumo 803s are cleared. Go figure…..

That’s strange as I’ve had TPE 802s over the High Level Bridge on electric several times.

 

[hacman]

On another note trains departing Newcastle via High Level Bridge also have to operate on diesel. Apparently a paperwork hiccup means 80x stock have never been cleared to operate on electric across the bridge and through Gateshead. However Lumo 803s are cleared. Go figure…..

That’s strange as I’ve had TPE 802s over the High Level Bridge on electric several times.

I've been on the Sunderland service from London a few times, which goes electric over the high level bridge into Newcastle, then starts the engines in Newcastle station, before heading towards Sunderland. So they're absolutely cleared to use the route on electric.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Maybe my driver last week on 9M14 was mistaken. I questioned wether we were supposed to be on diesel before being despatched and that was what he told me.

————- Edit ————-

Nope, not a mistake. TPE Drivers are instructed to run on diesel across High Level Bridge and remain in diesel up to the next station stop.

9M26 12:43 Newcastle to Liverpool has just departed that way off platform 1 on diesel power. Changing over to electric at the next station stop which is Durham