Anyone Know About James Gregson Railway Contractor

[Andy873]

I'm trying to find out more about James Gregson, a contractor who built a section of the North Lancs loop line (Padiham - Rose Grove).

There is very little detail in my L&Y Society book about him except they mention James Gregson & Co won the tender. John Marshall simply calls him James Gregson.

Looking through Tom Wray's chronology of the L&Y which includes the East Lancs railway, Gregson is mentioned several times. He seems to be regular character placing tenders and doing railway works for these companies all over the place. This list of events and dates is put together from both minutes of meeting from the railway companies and newspaper reports...

None of the minutes from the railway companies call Gregson James, or state where he's based, however one newspaper extract stated Mr. Gregson of Wakefield. I found a headline in the Leeds Times (10 June 1871) noting that the daughter of Mr. J. Gregson of Wakefield, Contractor has got married.

Can we say this is the same Mr. Gregson?
Does anyone know about James Gregson and where he was based?

I tried the University of Leicester and look at the 1871 White's directory for Leeds which includes Wakefield but the site is playing up at the moment.

Mr. Gregson and his company went bust around 1874 and he died in September 1876, and that's all I know about him.

Any ideas anyone?

 

[Gloster]

He does not appear to be in either .steamindex.com or Graces Guide, so probably not a major contractor.

 

[Andy873]

He does not appear to be in either .steamindex.com or Graces Guide, so probably not a major contractor.

@Gloster, thanks for having a look, I must try to remember those two sites for future reference.

The newspaper extract that states he's from Wakefield reports that (July 1871) he has just finished building Pontefract station which has now just opened.

I've tried going through the search results for him on the London Gazette site, but yet again there's no mention of him. The only other James Gregson being reported at the time owns the Vulcan Iron Works in Preston, and I'm sure that's not him.

I'm stumped at the moment!

If anyone has access to the minutes of the L&NWR or other railway companies that ran through Yorkshire could you please have a look for him. For example he replaced the roof of the Exchange station in Liverpool in 1857.

 

[krus_aragon]

It's not a name I recognise. I've had a search through the Welsh Newspapers Archive (http://newspapers.library.wales) for Gregson AND Railway AND Contractor, and found nothing. It appears that his work didn't bring him in this direction, at least.

(The closest result was an Englishman named Mr. Gregson being appointed manager of the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway in 1846, but that's most likely a different person.)

 

[stuving]

Would you settle for Jonas Gregson of Wakefield? In the 1861 census he is shown as a "railway contractor employing 90 men", and has three unmarried daughters. One of them was Theresa Arebella, who did indeed get married in June 1871 to the (hard to believe but real) Benjamin D'Oyly Aplin - who was a West Riding police constable (his dad was the local superintendent!).

The Burnley Gazette of 10 October 1874 has an auction sale notice of contractor's plant instructed by Jonas Gregson "in consequence of completion of contract, of railway from Rosegrove to Padiham".

 

[Andy873]

It's not a name I recognise. I've had a search through the Welsh Newspapers Archive (http://newspapers.library.wales) for Gregson AND Railway AND Contractor, and found nothing. It appears that his work didn't bring him in this direction, at least.

(The closest result was an Englishman named Mr. Gregson being appointed manager of the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway in 1846, but that's most likely a different person.)

Thanks for trying to find him, much appreciated anyway.

Would you settle for Jonas Gregson of Wakefield? In the 1861 census he is shown as a "railway contractor employing 90 men", and has three unmarried daughters. One of them was Theresa Arebella, who did indeed get married in June 1871 to the (hard to believe but real) Benjamin D'Oyly Aplin - who was a West Riding police constable (his dad was the local superintendent!).

Yes I would, and you've proved it!...

The Burnley Gazette of 10 October 1874 has an auction sale notice of contractor's plant instructed by Jonas Gregson "in consequence of completion of contract, of railway from Rosegrove to Padiham".

Bullseye!!!

So, his first real name was Jonas, perhaps he preferred James or it was one of those names that were interchangeable, such as Bill for William.

Looking though Tom Wray's notes on the L&Y, he didn't really do that much work for them, the new roof at Liverpool's exchange station was one (Tender 1857), Pontefract station (opened 1871), and perhaps one more - In 1866 he seems to have partnered up with someone called Alcock under the name Gregson, Alcock & Co, and together they tender for the Heckmondwike and Thornhill line, at nearly 24,500 pounds which is accepted by the L&Y. Looks like he was getting more ambitious.

The timing is right, his final tender of 33,198 pounds for the Padiham - Rose Grove section seems to be his biggest yet, certainly for the L&Y, accepted January 1871).

The tender price has always seemed to me at least to be a little on the low side, for various reasons I think it's about 1,500 out, perhaps this is where he tripped himself up, although I have to say this section of line should (and was) relatively easy to build.

@stuving, a super hero in my mind! could I ask a couple more things from you please. How old was Gregson in 1861?

Thomas Stone was the other separate contractor building the Blackburn - Padiham section. He was based in Newton-le-Willows, built houses for the L&NWR close by in Earlestown and from a village close by... Are there any records of him in the 1861 census? number of people he employed? born? etc. Would be very grateful if you could look these up for me please!

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[stuving]

Handwritten, "Jonas" and "James" look very similar, so misreading the rarer Jonas as the common James was quite likely, at the time or by a later researcher. Of course that doesn't rule out there being a James Gregson too, certainly there were many people of that name.

One key question comes down to whether an auctioneer would take instructions from the seller by letter or send his notice to the newspaper and not check their spelling. Either could introduce the misreading. And I think I have an example in April 1875: a notice on 3rd of a sale instructed by James Gregson of "the whole of the plant used by him in making the Padiham loop line. Particulars next week.". Then on 10th is a longer notice, this time instructed by Jonas Gregson, of a sale at Padiham station of "plant, as used by him in making the loop line between Burnley and Padiham". This ends with "Padiham is within easy walking distance from Rosegrove and Hapton Stations" - was Padiham not yet open to passengers?

I think we can take registrations, and census entries seen as an image, as usually right, and the probate calendar as particularly reliable, so Jonas is real enough. But his father was James and his younger brother too, both masons and potentially contractors if they took on bigger jobs.

When James senior, 1795-1861, died there was no probate notice. James junior, 1825-1866, is listed with the occupation of contractor. And a court case in 1859 refers to a theft of mason's tools (iron punches), taken from a culvert on the South Durham Railway and Lancashire Union Railway, property of James Gregson (jun), contractor.

So my guess is he tried his hand at this, following his big brother, but may not have got so far; his probate value was under £450. His executor was his brother George, and both were "contractor for public works" - a term that could apply to a mason with quite a small business, I think.

 

[Andy873]

And I think I have an example in April 1875: a notice on 3rd of a sale instructed by James Gregson of "the whole of the plant used by him in making the Padiham loop line. Particulars next week.". Then on 10th is a longer notice, this time instructed by Jonas Gregson, of a sale at Padiham station of "plant, as used by him in making the loop line between Burnley and Padiham". This ends with "Padiham is within easy walking distance from Rosegrove and Hapton Stations" - was Padiham not yet open to passengers?

Thanks for the reply, very interesting. We can see just how easy it was to get a name wrong.

Was Padiham station open to passengers in 1875? - No. Goods trains officially started 1 July 1875 but passenger had to wait until 1 Sept 1876.

One of the newspaper articles mentions an auction at his yard, Bridge End, Padiham. This was on the old North side of the Calder river where the original town was.

Jonas or James, it's really a sad story of someone who got out of his depths with something that really shouldn't have been too hard to build. As for holding an auction at the station there - With Gregson unable to continue, Thomas Stone, contractor for the other very difficult section was simply given the extra contract to build all three stations in 1874. The first being Padiham, and I think when it's said "at Padiham station" what's really meant is the area where the station is going to be rather than a physical building. For example, when the station did finally open to the public in Sept 1876 it still needed painting!

I have a couple of new posts coming up which I hope people will be interested in shortly.

Once more, thanks for all your help!

 

[stuving]

Jonas Gregson was born in 1816 in Haworth, Yorkshire, and married Ann Whitaker in 1837 in Keighley. He became a stonemason, like his father, then travelled about and by 1851 was in Islington, described just as a tradesman. He was then in Ireland for a time, before being found as a contractor by 1861 in Wakefield. When he died in 1876 his will was proved with a value of less than £7,000 - then resworn soon after as less than £8,000.

And then I checked the London Gazette, and found another end of partnership notice. This was put in on 10/1/1851 by Jonas Gregson and (I think) his brother George, saying their partnership as railway contractors was dissolved. The early date is a surprise, given his census entry a few month later as "tradesman". But the biggest surprise is their address - the contractors' office of the East and West India Docks and Birmingham Junction Railway. This opened in sections from 1850, and is now the North London Line. So quite an important job.

George was born in 1820 and died in 1873. In the 1871 census he was described as a retired contractor (builder), aged 49. I looks as if his health was the reason for the - in our terms - early end of his career. His probate record has him as "gentleman", worth "less than £5,000". His executor was yet another brother, John, born 1825. He remained a stone mason, for a change.

Of Jonas's sons, John Henry became a draper, but Charles Arthur Fitzherbert (or Fitzgerald) tried that and then became a civil engineer. He was involved in the Douglas Head Marine Drive project as a promoter, but I can't find anything to show he was involved in the tramway, or indeed what else he did.

 

[Andy873]

@stuving, You've obviously have sent some time and effort to look all this up for me. Truly can't thank you enough!

Jonas Gregson was born in 1816 in Haworth, Yorkshire, and married Ann Whitaker in 1837 in Keighley. He became a stonemason, like his father, then travelled about and by 1851 was in Islington, described just as a tradesman. He was then in Ireland for a time, before being found as a contractor by 1861 in Wakefield. When he died in 1876 his will was proved with a value of less than £7,000 - then resworn soon after as less than £8,000.

Given the year he was born, it means then he was 60 when he died, probably a reasonable age given the conditions of the Victorian era.

I can easily see now that someone born in Haworth, married in Keighley and at the time working from Wakefield would consider tendering for the Padiham - Rose Grove section. This would have seemed to be on his back door step.

And then I checked the London Gazette, and found another end of partnership notice. This was put in on 10/1/1851 by Jonas Gregson and (I think) his brother George, saying their partnership as railway contractors was dissolved. The early date is a surprise, given his census entry a few month later as "tradesman". But the biggest surprise is their address - the contractors' office of the East and West India Docks and Birmingham Junction Railway. This opened in sections from 1850, and is now the North London Line. So quite an important job.

Because I was searching for James Gregson not Jonas was the reason I came up with a blank on the London Gazette site plus others, once I substituted Jonas - Bingo!

It is a big surprize to see him and presumably his brother working on that important railway line, so it seems he has quite a bit more experience than has previously been mentioned. It also interesting to read about his brother, sons etc. It really does in a fashion bring Jonas back to life. By what you tell me, it looks like he moved around a lot, probably following new railway works as they cropped up.

What you've done here is fabulous, Jonas is hardly mentioned, which I don't think is fair on him. Perhaps one reason could have been that wrong first name. Over the years I myself have tried to find more about him but was clearly wrong footed because James was quoted not Jonas.

It's clear when you put the pieces together, the L&Y must have known he was in difficulties by the summer of 1874. As explained to me, formation work for a new line is done during Spring - Autumn as (hopefully) less days are lost to bad weather and the longer days. So perhaps when Spring came along, the L&Y would have expected a surge of new work by Gregson's men. Perhaps he had cash flow problems? if so, there's only so many times workers will turn up before they vote with their feet!

In 1874, the L&Y had to swallow two bitter pills, firstly the fact the line needed another two years to complete it, and Gregson going bust. The first was reported to the board in early August by Meek the chief engineer. The board gave Mr. Stone (the other contractor) the extra work for building the stations. Gregson's section was finished off by day labour organised by the L&Y.

With regards to Gregson auctioning his yard and contents off, It's probable that the yard was inside the actual large yard at Bridge End mill? I think it was common for mills to rent space out that wasn't being used at the time?

The wording of the auction notices are worded as if to say he's completed his contract with the L&Y and is now simply selling up. The reality was the L&Y couldn't now depend on him and he was told to stop and "go away". Looking at the standard pages of an L&Y tender, if they weren't happy with your work they could simply rip up the contract, full stop.

Sadly, there is a large disparity of information between Stone's section and Gregson's, largely down to the fact all the difficulties lay on Stone's section and seemingly none for Gregson.

And as said, Jonas was hardly written about regarding this branch line, something I can't let happen as he deserves better than that, after all, he more or less built one third of it!

Many, many thanks!