Anytime tickets with no additional validity over their Off Peak counterparts

[RJ]

I've recently been looking into the fares system to identify Off Peak fares which might prove to be useful for future planned trips. In the process, I found some CDRs which have no restrictions on them. In the case of Hanwell to Aylesbury Vale Parkway, the CDR is £18.60 and the SDR is £41.60, despite the tickets having identical validity.

Any other Anytime fares out there which offer no additional validity over their Off Peak counterpart?

Origin         	Origin NLC	Destination     	Destination NLC	Restriction	Type	Route        	Ticket Fare	TOC
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
ACTON MAIN LINE	3000      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
CASTLE BAR PARK	3098      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
DRAYTON GREEN  	3099      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
GREENFORD.     	3136      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
SOUTH GREENFORD	3138      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
READING.       	3149      	HEATHROW BUS    	5564           	A2         	CDR 	DIRECT       	 £20.00 	GWR
READING.       	3149      	HEATHROW BUS    	5564           	A2         	FFS 	DIRECT       	 £55.00 	GWR
WEST EALING    	3188      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
WEST EALING    	3188      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
EALING BROADWAY	3190      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	BEACONSFIELD    	3047           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	GERRARDS CROSS  	3051           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	DENHAM          	3052           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	DENHAM GOLF CLUB	3060           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	SEER GREEN      	3061           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £11.80 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	HADDENHAM & T PY	3053           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	PRINCES RISBORO 	3055           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	SAUNDERTON      	3056           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	LITTLE KIMBLE   	3066           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	MONKS RISBOROUGH	3067           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	AYLESBURY VALEPW	1090           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	WENDOVER        	1466           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	STOKE MANDEVILLE	1467           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH
HANWELL        	3191      	AYLESBURY       	1492           	A1         	CDR 	VIA GREENFORD	 £18.60 	NCH

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think, to be fair, the thread title is a little misleading. The Anytime tickets you refer to should never be sold by a ticket office, or TVM, (or guard where no ticket facilities exist) unless specifically requested, however, they do have a purpose where facilities do exist but are not used.

 

[Merseysider]

Something to bear in mind is that even though there is no logical reason to purchase the Anytime ticket ahead of its Off Peak counterpart, the Anytime ticket will be the one sold on board to someone who has ignored an opportunity to pay. So they do serve some purpose.

 

[RJ]

It might be an effective tactic on Virgin services with 2T or 2U restrictions, but I see less purpose in it being done in a Penalty Fare area where there are no guards.

Looking again at the Hanwell to Aylesbury Vale Parkway example,

SDS - £15.90
CDR - £18.60
SDR - £41.90

No CDS is available. If a buying a ticket is made an option in such a circumstance, that SDR is worse value that buying two singles by some margin. As it stands, there are no circumstances where that SDR would be sold.

I don't especially agree with loading TVMs and online booking engines with SDRs which are deliberately priced well above the rate of unrestricted Off Peak tickets, because people tend to end up buying them. Heaven knows how many TVM issued SDRs I have to keep giving out refunds for because people have later realised there's a cheaper ticket that would have better met their needs - the Off Peak Travelcard.

 

[hassaanhc]

I don't especially agree with loading TVMs and online booking engines with SDRs which are deliberate not priced at the market rate - people tend to end up buying them. Heaven knows how many TVM issued SDRs I have to keep giving out refunds for because people have realised too late there's a cheaper ticket that would have better met their needs - the Off Peak Travelcard.

That must get particularly annoying in London. As things stand, in almost all cases it is cheaper to buy a Off-Peak Travelcard for a return journey within the zones than to buy a return (often Anytime ones only available, at 2x single). The TVM at Hounslow lists an SDR to London Terminals at £10.80 as a commonly bought ticket, when you'd save £1.90 with a Z1-6 Off-Peak Travelcard and gain significantly more validity :roll:. The machine at Southall lists some Anytime Travelcards as popular options, and have to dig into the Travelcard list to get an Off-Peak one (the Z1-6 is named as "All-Zones" too which isn't strictly true). Still better than AGA machines which use the code of of "R1256" and "U1256" etc.
On the other hand, the DLR machines automatically issue a Travelcard when a return journey is selected.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It might be an effective tactic on Virgin services with 2T or 2U restrictions, but I see less purpose in it being done in a Penalty Fare area where there are no guards.

Looking again at the Hanwell to Aylesbury Vale Parkway example,

SDS - £15.90
CDR - £18.60
SDR - £41.90

No CDS is available. If a buying a ticket is made an option in such a circumstance, that SDR is worse value that buying two singles by some margin. As it stands, there are no circumstances where that SDR would be sold....

IIRC, in Penalty Fares Scheme areas, a Penalty Fare should be given to the next stop, a new ticket can be purchased from the RPI at that point for further journey beyond, or the passenger can alight and buy a new ticket. I believe the RPI would offer the Anytime fare if the passenger wished to remain on board.

....I don't especially agree with loading TVMs and online booking engines with SDRs which are deliberately priced well above the rate of unrestricted Off Peak tickets, because people tend to end up buying them. Heaven knows how many TVM issued SDRs I have to keep giving out refunds for because people have later realised there's a cheaper ticket that would have better met their needs - the Off Peak Travelcard.

AIUI, TVMs are loaded with the whole fare database because it would be far too time consuming to go through every single flow for every station to check which fares should be loaded or not, and some pedantic sods would then claim the complete range of fares is not available.:roll:

 

[Tetchytyke]

The ticket machines should list the fares, otherwise the full range isn't available. The real issue is that the fare exists in the first place. I expect it's a throwback from an old fare rather than a cynical attempt to rip passengers off. But the TOCs only ever seem to get around to changing throwback fares that are adverse to them, rather than ones that are adverse to the passenger. Funny that.

It's why ticket machines are so problematic, because there's no guidance on whether a ticket is appropriate. You see it a lot with first class fares on flows which have one train a day with first class accommodation (e.g. Bradford to Leeds).

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think, to be fair, the thread title is a little misleading. The Anytime tickets you refer to should never be sold by a ticket office, or TVM, (or guard where no ticket facilities exist) unless specifically requested, however, they do have a purpose where facilities do exist but are not used.

Greenford station's booking office is run by London Underground, and will not sell off-peak tickets before 0930. I wouldn't have too much faith in any of the others doing so either, but that's a different issue

 

[greatkingrat]

It looks like many of the fares in the original list are actually overridden by another flow and not available for sale.

eg http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=AML&dest=BCF

the £11.80 CDR (code A1) set by Chiltern is overridden by a £10.70 CDR (code W1) set by FGW that is only valid after 0930.

 

[TEW]

AIUI, TVMs are loaded with the whole fare database because it would be far too time consuming to go through every single flow for every station to check which fares should be loaded or not, and some pedantic sods would then claim the complete range of fares is not available.:roll:

SWT TVMs will not offer you an Anytime Day fare once an Off Peak Day fare is valid, provided the Off Peak day fare is unrestricted on the return portion.

 

[bnm]

The example in the OP, Hanwell to Aylesbury Vale Parkway (via Greenford), can be purchased online, but it gives an itinerary with travel on the Underground between Greenford and South Ruislip. Would such a ticket work the LU barriers should you wish to make a BoJ at either Greenford or South Ruislip? What if (admittedly, not very likely) you are checked by a LU Revenue Control Inspector whilst on those stations or the Central Line train?

A rail ticket being used on a LU service without a Maltese Cross would raise some suspicion.

Are there any other such journeys for which travel, in part, has to be on the Underground, but isn't a cross-London transfer?

 

[PermitToTravel]

The example in the OP, Hanwell to Aylesbury Vale Parkway (via Greenford), can be purchased online, but it gives an itinerary with travel on the Underground between Greenford and South Ruislip. Would such a ticket work the LU barriers should you wish to make a BoJ at either Greenford or South Ruislip? What if (admittedly, not very likely) you are checked by a LU Revenue Control Inspector whilst on those stations or the Central Line train?

A rail ticket being used on a LU service without a Maltese Cross would raise some suspicion.

Are there any other such journeys for which travel, in part, has to be on the Underground, but isn't a cross-London transfer?

TfL have an agreement with ATOC to accept such tickets, but not every (any?) LU RCI knows this. I doubt it would work the barriers at Greenford or South Ruislip: staff at the former are unlikely to let one through; staff at the latter unlikely to lock the manual gate.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

T I doubt it would work the barriers at Greenford or South Ruislip:

The interchange at Greenford is cross platform. Without knowing for certain, I would expect the barriers at South Ruislip to control access to both LU and Chiltern platforms, so again no need to pass through the barriers.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The interchange at Greenford is cross platform. Without knowing for certain, I would expect the barriers at South Ruislip to control access to both LU and Chiltern platforms, so again no need to pass through the barriers.

That's correct. South Ruislip has one gateline and passengers interchanging do not need to pass through it. bnm was asking about passengers wishing to make a Break of Journey, commonly referred to on this forum as a BoJ