Are bus drivers working too-long hours to cover the shortage in drivers?

[GrimsbyPacer]

Here in Grimsby, I over-heard some bus drivers talking about work shifts, one said he had done 10 hours work on one day but it recorded as just over 7 hours, and the other said he had worked 5 days in a week and been asked to work an extra day as well.

Has anyone else heard drivers talk about working a lot longer than they should be?

 

[Flange Squeal]

This example might not necessarily have meant they were undertaking illegal practices, by marking 7 hours driving instead of 10. It might be a reference to getting 7 hours pay and/or doing 7 hours driving during a 10 hour shift. Many operators don't pay for drivers' break periods, so a shift of say 0600-1600 won't necessarily pay, or count as, 10 hours of actual work, if there are some lengthy break periods contained within it.

 

[Stan Drews]

Bus drivers regularly work on their rest days, so 6 day working certainly isn’t unusual.

 

[Roger1973]

Legally, PSV drivers on 'domestic hours' (broadly local bus rather than coach) can drive up to 10 hours a day (with a break somewhere in that day - the 10 hours is actual driving time, not 'spreadover' from start to finish of duty), and work 13 days in 14.

Whether this is reasonable in the first place is another question.

Whether breaks in the duty are paid in full or in part is really up to the operator as part of the pay / conditions agreement.

Most operators schedule / roster on the basis of either a 4 or 5 day week (if it's a 4 day week it tends to be longer days) and working of at least one rest day a week is quite common.

Just how operators manage this is varied, there's usually some drivers who are eager to work as much overtime / rest day work as they can, others are less keen, and the allocation staff at depot level usually know who's who. It can sometimes be the case that operators run out of eager volunteers and try to get other drivers to work overtime / rest days as well. Some operators have a pool of casual drivers, although this can be resisted by unions (with some operators, the agreement is that casual drivers can only do things like rail replacement and special events, not regular service.)

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

This example might not necessarily have meant they were undertaking illegal practices, by marking 7 hours driving instead of 10. It might be a reference to getting 7 hours pay and/or doing 7 hours driving during a 10 hour shift. Many operators don't pay for drivers' break periods, so a shift of say 0600-1600 won't necessarily pay, or count as, 10 hours of actual work, if there are some lengthy break periods contained within it.

Bus drivers regularly work on their rest days, so 6 day working certainly isn’t unusual.

Agree on both counts.

Split turns that I used to do would run from ~0630 to ~1830, but with 3 or 4 hours unpaid time off between the two parts of the split.

Working a rest day was a useful supplement to the weekly wage packet if needed, and was always popular leading up to Christmas. The main legal stipulation that I can recall was no more than 13 days of consecutive working without a mandatory rest day.

 

[mb88]

The main legal stipulation that I can recall was no more than 13 days of consecutive working without a mandatory rest day.

And even then it does not have to be a day off as such, just a period of 24 hours. So a driver could quite legally work 13 consecutive days, finish at say 3pm on the 13th day, then work the following day starting at 3pm and that would count as their fortnightly rest. So in theory you could work 365 days a year without breaking any rules. GB domestic rules are unfit for purpose.

 

[Geordie driver]

No respectable bus company is going to put up rotas or allow overtime that exceeds driving hours regulations, at least not on purpose,it would soon drop them in the doo dah when the traffic commissioners noticed it.

 

[carlberry]

And even then it does not have to be a day off as such, just a period of 24 hours. So a driver could quite legally work 13 consecutive days, finish at say 3pm on the 13th day, then work the following day starting at 3pm and that would count as their fortnightly rest. So in theory you could work 365 days a year without breaking any rules. GB domestic rules are unfit for purpose.

All rules like this can be pushed to the limit if people want to (as the government is trying to at present to cover itself!). In the example you'd have to be directly self employed otherwise the general holiday regulations would also apply. Do you have examples where people have been made to do this?

 

[RT4038]

And even then it does not have to be a day off as such, just a period of 24 hours. So a driver could quite legally work 13 consecutive days, finish at say 3pm on the 13th day, then work the following day starting at 3pm and that would count as their fortnightly rest. So in theory you could work 365 days a year without breaking any rules. GB domestic rules are unfit for purpose.

This could be done, but the likelihood is infinitesimally small, and consequently probably not worth further restrictions or complicated rules. It may be done in certain places (most likely in the past rather than now) where there is a short sharp holiday peak or something. Doubt there are many examples of the whole year, certainly in any mainstream bus company.

 

[Whisky Papa]

And even then it does not have to be a day off as such, just a period of 24 hours. So a driver could quite legally work 13 consecutive days, finish at say 3pm on the 13th day, then work the following day starting at 3pm and that would count as their fortnightly rest. So in theory you could work 365 days a year without breaking any rules. GB domestic rules are unfit for purpose.

For most of the time I was driving for Yorkshire Rider/First (1988-2003), working 13 days a fortnight was the norm for most of my colleagues. Work was written into the rota for the 6th day each week, which could be declined, but few drivers did so. 7th day work was ad hoc, apart from a few Sundays where that was also written into the rota. I know one or two drivers sometimes used an early finish one day before a late start the day after as their rest period in the fortnight, but I don't think that aspect was very widespread. Then of course there was ad-hoc overtime before or after your duty! Weeks of 55-60 hours were quite normal, I occasionally got into the high sixties or even low seventies.

I eventually started taking more time off, and one of the things that enabled this was that the basic flat rate had increased quite rapidly, so it was possible to earn a decent wage (for my circumstances) in a basic week. Even then, I often swapped to longer duties so I would be working say 44 hours instead of 39, which also had benefits regarding the pension I am now receiving.

 

[Roger1973]

No respectable bus company is going to put up rotas or allow overtime that exceeds driving hours regulations, at least not on purpose,it would soon drop them in the doo dah when the traffic commissioners noticed it.

Also, most bus operators (except the smallest) use some form of computerised driver allocation system (not to be confused with the scheduling software, although it can be two bits of the same software package, and data - in terms of the basic rotas and duties - is fed from one to the other, and data can then be fed onwards to the pay system) and these will object if the allocators try to get a driver to do something that breaks a drivers' hours limit.

DVSA (and TFL in respect of TFL contracted services) can audit drivers' hours adherence.

 

[arbeia]

A few years ago you could work 19 days off the belt. The Company stated, yes it's 13 days in any 2 weeks, but they twisted it as thus-
Week 1 Rest Day then work the next 6 days
Week 2 work 7 days
Week 3 work 6 days then a final rest day
Thus 19 off the belt by counting it as only working 13 in any 2 week period.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Here in Grimsby, I over-heard some bus drivers talking about work shifts, one said he had done 10 hours work on one day but it recorded as just over 7 hours, and the other said he had worked 5 days in a week and been asked to work an extra day as well.

Has anyone else heard drivers talk about working a lot longer than they should be?

In other words he was paid 7hr for his 10hr shift.

It’s the same in most operators over the whole of the UK.

It's possible for drivers to work 10hr x 5 shifts and get paid 7hrs for each shift = 35hrs pay, however, their working week/time spent at work will be 50hrs.

It’s a very typical scenario of the industry and some may wonder why drivers aren’t wanting the job…

 

[anthony263]

Unite got a survey out asking drivers abd lack of paid breaks. I'm a firm believer that if you worked for 50 hours you get paid 50 hours. Yes your not driving on your breaks but your still in your uniform etc


A lack of trust/respect between drivers and management being another. Management always take the aides of customers instead off staff,sometimes the customers need to be put in their place.

I've always believed management should hold a pcv licence and go out driving at least 1 day per week.

I know owners of some operators do like to get out of the office for a change of scenery

Poor facilities for drivers is another bad point

 

[notadriver]

How safe is bus travel if bus drivers are driving round excessively fatigued ? At least coach travel should be safer thanks to the rest periods imposed by EU hours drivers rules.

 

[820KDV]

How safe is bus travel if bus drivers are driving round excessively fatigued ? At least coach travel should be safer thanks to the rest periods imposed by EU hours drivers rules.

Domestic hours, which most bus drivers work under, aren't a "free for all" though, indeed one of the industries leading scheduling experts suggests that, with full knowledge of the EU regulations they could be more flexible.

And many a canteen discussion has revolved around which is more fatiguing, hours on the motorway with little to do, or "five on the fives" (my depot's least liked piece of city work) with constant stop start and customer interaction.

A lack of trust/respect between drivers and management being another. Management always take the aides of customers instead off staff,sometimes the customers need to be put in their place.

I well remember a letter from the manager of a depot which is part of one of the big groups where a passenger complained that her bus always left early and she was about to lose her job. The manager reviewed the vehicle telematics and body side video and proved that the bus always stopped at her stop, was never early, and that only on a couple of occasions was she close enough to the bus to show on the CCTV. The letter explained all this in detail, and concluded with "on this occasion I am afraid I can help you no further". Same depot, but a subsequent manager, had a complaint from a mother with buggy who had "4 buses drive past" her. Again CCTV was reviewed, and drivers subsequently interviewed. The first two buses stopped, but as the buggy bay was already occupied she refused to board. The third bus didn't stop, but she made signal, or attempt to move to board so the driver continued. When asked why he didn't stop, he replied that he'd seconds before passed a bus on a different route waiting at a T-junction, so he assumed she wanted that bus. Rewind the CCTV a few more seconds, sure enough there was the other bus at the crossroads. Again passenger informed of the actual situation, and advised that a clear signal is always helpful to drivers.

As the manager of another company put it, there are many more times when CCTV will support / protect the driver than it will ever catch them out, but that's O/T in an hours discussion.