"Arrival" new UK based bus manufacturer

[randyrippley]

anyone taking this seriously? Has shades of Delorean to my eye

news report

Arrival enter the UK bus market with an all-new zero-emission bus - CBW

A new entrant to the UK bus market was announced on 17 June, UK-based Arrival has revealed a zero-emission bus that it hopes will transform the public transport industry at a time when it is [...]

cbwmagazine.com

corporate website

Arrival | Zero-emission solutions

We're delivering zero-emission solutions for your city. Urban utility vehicle. Beautiful, functional, affordable and sustainable.

arrival.com

 

[mmh]

anyone taking this seriously? Has shades of Delorean to my eye

news report

Arrival enter the UK bus market with an all-new zero-emission bus - CBW

A new entrant to the UK bus market was announced on 17 June, UK-based Arrival has revealed a zero-emission bus that it hopes will transform the public transport industry at a time when it is [...]

cbwmagazine.com

corporate website

Arrival | Zero-emission solutions

We're delivering zero-emission solutions for your city. Urban utility vehicle. Beautiful, functional, affordable and sustainable.

arrival.com

If they've sold 10,000 vans to UPS they must be doing something right. UPS famously specify their own custom vans and so can't buy off the shelf - it doesn't seem far fetched for a company supplying them to expand into buses.

 

[DD12]

Fascinating !!

 

[Nym]

Fascinating it is, but I won't be applying for work with them.

Their business strategy seems to be based on optimism rather than sound financial ideas. So once the early adopters have picked them clean on the loss leaders, I suspect there won't be any meat left to make money on?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Good to see a new manufacturer giving things a try but i can safely say this product won't sell, it may get a few niche sales at a few independents but it wouldn't get any large scale orders. They seem to be running on the hype that it's a zero emissions bus, but fail to realise that this is something ADL, Wright & Optare already offer. In terms of innovation the marketing makes the bus seem much more than it really is and stylistically it looks outdated.

I wish them well, but i doubt it'll go far. Operators have little real interest in buying from a unknown supplier.

 

[MotCO]

What is their USP*? Is it that they can be built in small factories, close to where the client is? Is it that their range is significantly greater than other buses, in which case, I can see the company being purchased for their technology? # Otherwise, I'm not sure how they can fit into a market dominated by a few builders, with increasing influence from China for electric vehicles.

* = Unique Selling Point
#= I couldn't see range quoted in any of their blurb unless I missed it.

 

[dgl]

New entries to a market very rarely can produce something better than the incumbents, primarily as even if you have some wizz bang new technology the actual business of building a vehicle is relatively unchanged and I would expect a company that has been producing buses for a significant amount of time.
It's all about the whole package, you could stick a long range electric drive train in a Trabant, wouldn't necessarily make people want to buy it, even if the green credentials are there.
Plus with China they don't need the technology as they already have their own, plus who would they rather give a large order for buses too?, some western start-up or one of their own companies that probably has a lot of state financing.

Even take a look at companies like Tesla that are supposedly the top of the range when it comes to EV's, though build quality is supposedly suspect (i.e. paint defects that no other manufacturer would allow out of the factory) and the software coding is supposedly a complete mess.

Again unless you have the years of experience of not only building buses but the R+D expenditure and the years of customer feedback as well the chance of making a decent product from the start is near impossible.

 

[borage]

Clearly they've convinced investors to give them lots of money. Their delivery vans look great, and that must be a bigger market than buses. There are some advantages to a vehicle designed "from the ground up" to be electric, compared to adapting an existing design.

Interview with their "chief experience officer". Quite a lot of hand-wavy bluster:

“I think a lot of other bus manufacturers are just making buses. They’re not making systems. And that’s, I think, the thing that distinguishes us,” he added.

 

[cnjb8]

I think they would stand a chance if they produced a demo vehicle. There is a growing choice of electric buses here, yet only a few demo buses about

 

[GusB]

Clearly they've convinced investors to give them lots of money. Their delivery vans look great, and that must be a bigger market than buses. There are some advantages to a vehicle designed "from the ground up" to be electric, compared to adapting an existing design.

If Arrival have companies like Kia and Hyundai behind them, there must be something in it. I'm not sure how far along the van project is, but if they get that right then it's only a step away from having an electric mini/midibus product. Of the UK bus manufacturers, only Optare really occupies that space (bar the "traditional" van conversions, of course).

Good to see a new manufacturer giving things a try but i can safely say this product won't sell, it may get a few niche sales at a few independents but it wouldn't get any large scale orders. They seem to be running on the hype that it's a zero emissions bus, but fail to realise that this is something ADL, Wright & Optare already offer. In terms of innovation the marketing makes the bus seem much more than it really is and stylistically it looks outdated.

Nah, it'll never sell. It's great to see the old forum skepticism swing into action. I'd also like to borrow your crystal ball at some point so that I too can predict the future! From the Verge article that @borage linked to, it would seem that there is already a prototype being tested, so it's not as if it hasn't left the drawing board yet. I doubt that Arrival have failed to see that other manufacturers offer zero emissions products - one of the first things they would have done is checked out the competition. In terms of styling, this is subjective and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Personally I quite like the appearance and certainly do not think it looks outdated. At least they haven't tried to make the front end "smile".

Let's not forget that while ADL, Optare and Wrightbus are established builders of complete vehicles now, this was not always the case. They all started out as body manufacturers building on someone else's technology and over time. If companies never produced new products because they thought that the market was already saturated, the world would be very boring.

I think they would stand a chance if they produced a demo vehicle. There is a growing choice of electric buses here, yet only a few demo buses about

Produce a few demonstrators, set up a trial with operators who are willing to try something new and see where it goes. If the product is built well, efficient, comfortable and if the price is right, bigger orders will follow.

 

[MotCO]

Demonstrators are difficult if there is no suitable power supply*, unless the operator already has some electric buses.

*I know that there are some mobile power supplies, but I don't know how effective these are.

 

[philthetube]

If they are good and the price is right they just need to hook one of the majours and away they go, sounds as if they have the backing to not need to make cash from initial orders.

 

[fgwrich]

I think they would stand a chance if they produced a demo vehicle. There is a growing choice of electric buses here, yet only a few demo buses about

It appears that there already is a Demo vehicle already in existence, as the videos from these pages show it driving around the Millbrook Proving Ground (albeit in Left Hand Drive configuration).

Arrival Bus reimagines public transportation for a new normal

Arrival announces electric bus as part of an Integrated Public Transportation Ecosystem.

arrival.com

Arrival

Arrival is a member of Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

vimeo.com

I was wondering where I've seen the design of the delivery van before, UPS Has signed a large deal with them for EV Delivery Vans for London, while Brewdog is also about to sign a deal with them too.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Nah, it'll never sell. It's great to see the old forum skepticism swing into action. I'd also like to borrow your crystal ball at some point so that I too can predict the future! From the Verge article that @borage linked to, it would seem that there is already a prototype being tested, so it's not as if it hasn't left the drawing board yet. I doubt that Arrival have failed to see that other manufacturers offer zero emissions products - one of the first things they would have done is checked out the competition. In terms of styling, this is subjective and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Personally I quite like the appearance and certainly do not think it looks outdated. At least they haven't tried to make the front end "smile".

Let's not forget that while ADL, Optare and Wrightbus are established builders of complete vehicles now, this was not always the case. They all started out as body manufacturers building on someone else's technology and over time. If companies never produced new products because they thought that the market was already saturated, the world would be very boring.


Produce a few demonstrators, set up a trial with operators who are willing to try something new and see where it goes. If the product is built well, efficient, comfortable and if the price is right, bigger orders will follow.

As i said it'll maybe get a few small niche orders but it won't sell in big numbers. Scepticism maybe but i stand by my words. You don't need a crystal ball either, past experience shows that the UK bus industry are hesitant when a new suppler comes along. Just look at how poorly King Long, Temsa and BMCs single decker products did, the later of which no longer being in business here. Likewise BYD didn't have any real sales until they teamed up from ADL, BCI have struggled to sell the Enterprise. There's countless examples of a new manufacture entering the market, they'll sell a few vehicles and then either shift focus or vanish. I wish them the best of luck and am in no way trying to belittle the work/effort that went in to it, i'm just being realistic. No major bus operator is going to buy it when established names have similar and probably better (overall) products on the market.

With Alexanders they did also run bus services so in essence they got a kick start as they were buying their own products, Optare and Wright flourished after the demise of Leyland and other more local body manufacturers in the 90s. Even in we're in 2020, not the 1900s, so the comparison is a bit flawed. Once again i'm in no way against new companies joining the industry or offering new products, the more the better.

With your last point, in theory it's true, but in reality it's not. The bus industry is stubborn in it's ways and likes to stick with what's known / comfortable. If one day ADL and King Long (random example) offered a bus that was identical in every aspect i can safely guarantee ADLs orders would triumph over King Long, even if ADL had it slightly higher priced.

 

[GusB]

Good to see a new manufacturer giving things a try but i can safely say this product won't sell, it may get a few niche sales at a few independents but it wouldn't get any large scale orders. They seem to be running on the hype that it's a zero emissions bus, but fail to realise that this is something ADL, Wright & Optare already offer. In terms of innovation the marketing makes the bus seem much more than it really is and stylistically it looks outdated.

I wish them well, but i doubt it'll go far. Operators have little real interest in buying from a unknown supplier.

Would you like any condiments with those words?

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Reopened due to further developments

 

[Swanny200]

As stated in another thread, First have agreed to trial one of Arrival's buses in the Autumn on a yet unspecified route. I have a feeling that this could be another Tesla, now everyone is either playing catch up or have spent 6 or 7 years thinking nothing will come of it. For all Elon Musk's shortcomings (I have personal dislike of the man), you cannot argue with what he managed to build.

Arrival has the likes of Hyundai and Kia behind them, if they can help launch an infrastructure behind it for charging, dealer support etc... Then expect to see a lot of them on the streets.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Would you like any condiments with those words?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2021 ==

Reopened due to further developments

Arrival already has their R&D hub in Banbury and has taken on buildings for manufacture. Hyundai are major backers. If people are thinking about comparing to existing manufacturers, they shouldn't and the USPs are not about Zero emissions.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Would you like any condiments with those words?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2021 ==

Reopened due to further developments

*sips tea*

I stick by what i said, i wish them all success and to be proven wrong but i just can't see the product prevailing. It comes from a company who have no past experience building buses and seems far too focuses on what works "in concept" rather than what works in reality, the seating is perhaps a prime example of that.

 

[MotCO]

Is battery-power going to be short-lived? Will Hydrogen overtake it, in which case Arrival will either have to invest in alternative technology, or hope that their battery buses are quicker to recharge, and have greater range than other EVs. (As an example, it is said that route 358 in Orpington, tendered on the basis of electric vehicles, is sticking with diesel since the current crop of EVs does not have sufficient range for a service which runs 21 hours a day.)

 

[Swanny200]

Is battery-power going to be short-lived? Will Hydrogen overtake it, in which case Arrival will either have to invest in alternative technology, or hope that their battery buses are quicker to recharge, and have greater range than other EVs. (As an example, it is said that route 358 in Orpington, tendered on the basis of electric vehicles, is sticking with diesel since the current crop of EVs does not have sufficient range for a service which runs 21 hours a day.)

That has always been my reasoning, especially in terms of buying a car, I have no way of charging a pure electric or a hybrid that needs charging as my house is directly onto the street, I do however have a lamp post outside that some companies are placing charging points into. I did think a while ago, that for electric to be sustainable for long distance bus/coach/lorry work, hot swappable units may be an idea, but the tech certainly is not there yet, a system where say a haulage company has charging "Stores" at service stations, they would then pull up to said store, remove the dead or dying batteries and replace them with charged ones, then the dead ones could be charged. Would take no longer than sitting in a filling station, cons of that bar the infrastructure being nowhere near able to do that just now is that there are still nefarious parts of society that would use it as a way to gain more money by nicking them or destroying them and the fact that the batteries would be obscenely heavy.

Hydrogen is still not there either, if I recall, there are maybe 50 hydrogen stations in the UK for public use and only 3 cars you can buy with that technology, if hydrogen was the way forward then there would have been a lot more ploughed into it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is battery-power going to be short-lived? Will Hydrogen overtake it

I'd be surprised. Hydrogen is far, far less efficient when you have to produce it artificially, and only limited amounts of it are available as industrial by-products.

 

[option]

Fully Charged have been for a visit. The video below provides some information about the bus.

 

[Swanny200]

Fully Charged have been for a visit. The video below provides some information about the bus.

Yes, he went to look at the van when it came out as well, IIRC in the factory was the beginnings of the bus, he seemed a big fan of the van too.

 

[GusB]

Fully Charged have been for a visit. The video below provides some information about the bus.

I eventually got around to watching this video earlier this evening. I'm fairly impressed by what I've seen so far, but they seem to be emphasising the modular nature of the product and how it can be customised to individual customer requirements as if it were a completely new concept!

Where have I seen the idea of common front and rear modules, with the middle bit extended to meet requirements? Oh yes, the Leyland National. Is this not how ADL build products like the Enviro 200?

That said, I do wish them well in their endeavours. It's about time that the market was shaken up a bit.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Where have I seen the idea of common front and rear modules, with the middle bit extended to meet requirements? Oh yes, the Leyland National. Is this not how ADL build products like the Enviro 200?

You've probably heard of it before because it's how practically every "body on chassis" bus is built! Even most chassis' built by Volvo or Scania are delivered with only the front/rear modules, the body builder constructs the middle section to their desired length.

I eventually got around to watching this video earlier this evening. I'm fairly impressed by what I've seen so far, but they seem to be emphasising the modular nature of the product and how it can be customised to individual customer requirements as if it were a completely new concept!

I've spotted this a few times with videos about Arrival where people from the company are interviewed. They frequently tout stuff as being new or revolutionary when similar or even identical concepts are already in place on other vehicles.

 

[hst43102]

The view from the driver's perspective must be amazing. Probably the biggest windscreen I've ever seen!

 

[PG]

The view from the driver's perspective must be amazing. Probably the biggest windscreen I've ever seen!

I'm sure the big companies bean counters will see to it that the proportion of the front of the bus made of glass will be reduced.

 

[MotCO]

The view from the driver's perspective must be amazing. Probably the biggest windscreen I've ever seen!

The Optare Excel and Tempo had large windscreens as well, but not sure if it's so big. They could always cut them in half and have pantographic wipers like the did with the Leyland National, Plaxton coaches et al.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Arrival featured in Coach & Bus Week. Apparently First will start to trial them in the coming months (I don't have an online subscription to read this), if anyone does or has a physical copy...

 

[Swanny200]

Yes, I think it is First Berkshire that were touted as getting first dibs on trial, their factory being in that neck of the woods IIRC