Asked to buy another ticket after being told my ticket was valid

[SockedBishop]

Hi,

I was due to travel on Friday 24th January, however due to the storm there was no way to reach my destination as all my trains were cancelled, the day before all my journeys were showing as cancelled on the Northern app. So stayed in Liverpool another night.

I had an Advance Single (paper) ticket for the journey on the 24th, Liverpool Lime Street -- Whitehaven. (1 ticket, didn't split ticket)

This is what was shown in the Mandatory Reservation Coupons:
0845 Liverpool Lime Street -- Wigan NW (Northern)
0938 Wigan NW -- Carlisle (Avanti)
1108 Carlsile -- Whitehaven (Northern)

I went to the information desk on the Thursday 23rd to ask if my ticket would be valid to be used on the Saturday at anytime, I was told yes.
On Friday evening I noticed all my journeys were showing as cancelled on Saturday, so I decided to see if I can get a train to Carlisle on Saturday and catch a bus from there.

The northern app was showing a 1212 TPE (direct) service to Carlisle. At the station I spoke to the person at the information desk if my ticket would be valid, she wasn't sure and told me to "speak to the guys on 9", I spoke to a staff member on platform 9 who said my ticket "should be valid but won't work at the barriers so ask them to let you through" and check with the staff on the train. When the train pulled in I found a staff member who was still on the train and wearing TPE uniform and a name badge, and asked (before I boarded the train) if my ticket would be valid. I was told yes, "if you board the next carriage (ie not 1st class) you'll be fine".

During the journey a guard comes round checking tickets, I show mine and he asked for the bit that goes with it showing changes, which I present and he says my ticket isn't valid and I will need to buy a new one, something about northern only tickets not accepted, but they have an agreement with Avanti, he was looking at his mobile at this point. I asked why did the person said my ticket was valid if it isn't, response was "I'm not too sure".

My questions are:

How do I prevent something like this from happening again? If it was a Revenue Inspector, could I have been fined/prosecuted?
and what happens if I lose/don't have the Mandatory Reservation Coupons, will my ticket become invalid?

Thank you

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure on the other bit.

However the mandatory reservations coupon with an Advance ticket is part of the ticket and it is not valid without it. Both parts make up the ticket.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you’ve lost the mandatory reservation coupon then the ticket isn’t strictly valid. You need to keep both bits for the ticket to be valid.

Technically Northern+connections was only valid on Northern+connections on the Saturday. However given all the disruption you’d have expected the TPE guard to show some common sense, especially as Avanti were not running beyond Preston anyway and you obviously were not going to be travelling on your booked trains.

Sadly common sense seems to be in short supply at TPE these days.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi,

I was due to travel on Friday 24th January, however due to the storm there was no way to reach my destination as all my trains were cancelled, the day before all my journeys were showing as cancelled on the Northern app. So stayed in Liverpool another night.

I had an Advance Single (paper) ticket for the journey on the 24th, Liverpool Lime Street -- Whitehaven. (1 ticket, didn't split ticket)

This is what was shown in the Mandatory Reservation Coupons:
0845 Liverpool Lime Street -- Wigan NW (Northern)
0938 Wigan NW -- Carlisle (Avanti)
1108 Carlsile -- Whitehaven (Northern)

I went to the information desk on the Thursday 23rd to ask if my ticket would be valid to be used on the Saturday at anytime, I was told yes.
On Friday evening I noticed all my journeys were showing as cancelled on Saturday, so I decided to see if I can get a train to Carlisle on Saturday and catch a bus from there.

The northern app was showing a 1212 TPE (direct) service to Carlisle. At the station I spoke to the person at the information desk if my ticket would be valid, she wasn't sure and told me to "speak to the guys on 9", I spoke to a staff member on platform 9 who said my ticket "should be valid but won't work at the barriers so ask them to let you through" and check with the staff on the train. When the train pulled in I found a staff member who was still on the train and wearing TPE uniform and a name badge, and asked (before I boarded the train) if my ticket would be valid. I was told yes, "if you board the next carriage (ie not 1st class) you'll be fine".

During the journey a guard comes round checking tickets, I show mine and he asked for the bit that goes with it showing changes, which I present and he says my ticket isn't valid and I will need to buy a new one, something about northern only tickets not accepted, but they have an agreement with Avanti, he was looking at his mobile at this point. I asked why did the person said my ticket was valid if it isn't, response was "I'm not too sure".

My questions are:

How do I prevent something like this from happening again? If it was a Revenue Inspector, could I have been fined/prosecuted?
and what happens if I lose/don't have the Mandatory Reservation Coupons, will my ticket become invalid?

Thank you

This might be a daft question, but as well as being asked to buy another ticket, did they actually follow through and make you do so?

 

[Watershed]

Hi,

I was due to travel on Friday 24th January, however due to the storm there was no way to reach my destination as all my trains were cancelled, the day before all my journeys were showing as cancelled on the Northern app. So stayed in Liverpool another night.

I had an Advance Single (paper) ticket for the journey on the 24th, Liverpool Lime Street -- Whitehaven. (1 ticket, didn't split ticket)

This is what was shown in the Mandatory Reservation Coupons:
0845 Liverpool Lime Street -- Wigan NW (Northern)
0938 Wigan NW -- Carlisle (Avanti)
1108 Carlsile -- Whitehaven (Northern)

I went to the information desk on the Thursday 23rd to ask if my ticket would be valid to be used on the Saturday at anytime, I was told yes.
On Friday evening I noticed all my journeys were showing as cancelled on Saturday, so I decided to see if I can get a train to Carlisle on Saturday and catch a bus from there.

The northern app was showing a 1212 TPE (direct) service to Carlisle. At the station I spoke to the person at the information desk if my ticket would be valid, she wasn't sure and told me to "speak to the guys on 9", I spoke to a staff member on platform 9 who said my ticket "should be valid but won't work at the barriers so ask them to let you through" and check with the staff on the train. When the train pulled in I found a staff member who was still on the train and wearing TPE uniform and a name badge, and asked (before I boarded the train) if my ticket would be valid. I was told yes, "if you board the next carriage (ie not 1st class) you'll be fine".

During the journey a guard comes round checking tickets, I show mine and he asked for the bit that goes with it showing changes, which I present and he says my ticket isn't valid and I will need to buy a new one, something about northern only tickets not accepted, but they have an agreement with Avanti, he was looking at his mobile at this point. I asked why did the person said my ticket was valid if it isn't, response was "I'm not too sure".

My questions are:

How do I prevent something like this from happening again? If it was a Revenue Inspector, could I have been fined/prosecuted?
and what happens if I lose/don't have the Mandatory Reservation Coupons, will my ticket become invalid?

Thank you

You were given permission to travel on that service by a member of staff, so legally speaking the conductor had no right to charge you regardless of the ticket's actual validity. That being said, the difficulty lies in proving this permission. This is why it can sometimes be advantageous (even if some may view it as undesirable) to obtain evidence of any verbal permission by means of a discreet audio recording on your phone.

However, it much easier to rely on the fact that your ticket would have been routed "Avanti & Connections". This means it isn't tied to one particular operator (as demonstrated by the itinerary including multiple operators) and is therefore valid on any other operator in the event of disruption. That means you shouldn't have been charged extra as your ticket was already valid on TPE.

I would send a complaint in, asking to be reimbursed for any additional fare you were charged. Furthermore, even if it had been legally permitted to charge for a new ticket, it was extremely unreasonable to do so given the scale of the disruption you faced and the exhortation operators made for people to delay their travel. I think that on its own warrants an apology, although it may be difficult to obtain one.

 

[Skymonster]

Buy, carry and use a body cam: they record us, no reason why we shouldn’t record them. I’m doing that following a previous interaction during which I felt rail staff treated me unreasonably. I shouldn’t have to but it’ll be useful elsewhere too.

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

I was due to travel on Friday 24th January, however due to the storm there was no way to reach my destination as all my trains were cancelled, the day before all my journeys were showing as cancelled on the Northern app. So stayed in Liverpool another night.

I had an Advance Single (paper) ticket for the journey on the 24th, Liverpool Lime Street -- Whitehaven. (1 ticket, didn't split ticket)

This is what was shown in the Mandatory Reservation Coupons:
0845 Liverpool Lime Street -- Wigan NW (Northern)
0938 Wigan NW -- Carlisle (Avanti)
1108 Carlsile -- Whitehaven (Northern)

I went to the information desk on the Thursday 23rd to ask if my ticket would be valid to be used on the Saturday at anytime, I was told yes.
On Friday evening I noticed all my journeys were showing as cancelled on Saturday, so I decided to see if I can get a train to Carlisle on Saturday and catch a bus from there.

The northern app was showing a 1212 TPE (direct) service to Carlisle. At the station I spoke to the person at the information desk if my ticket would be valid, she wasn't sure and told me to "speak to the guys on 9", I spoke to a staff member on platform 9 who said my ticket "should be valid but won't work at the barriers so ask them to let you through" and check with the staff on the train. When the train pulled in I found a staff member who was still on the train and wearing TPE uniform and a name badge, and asked (before I boarded the train) if my ticket would be valid. I was told yes, "if you board the next carriage (ie not 1st class) you'll be fine".

During the journey a guard comes round checking tickets, I show mine and he asked for the bit that goes with it showing changes, which I present and he says my ticket isn't valid and I will need to buy a new one, something about northern only tickets not accepted, but they have an agreement with Avanti, he was looking at his mobile at this point. I asked why did the person said my ticket was valid if it isn't, response was "I'm not too sure".

Have you been charged anything? If so, you need to request a refund; we are happy to proof read a letter if you want to draft one

If not, it may still be worth complaining to TPE about the conduct of their staff member.

My questions are:

How do I prevent something like this from happening again?

You can't; some railway staff behave like this and there aren't sufficient safeguards in place to prevent them doing so.

f it was a Revenue Inspector, could I have been fined/prosecuted?

Only a court can issue a fine; they could attempt to issue a penalty fare, but you could appeal this. If TPE reported you for prosecution, then I am confident we would get it cancelled.

and what happens if I lose/don't have the Mandatory Reservation Coupons, will my ticket become invalid?

Thank you

All parts of the ticket need to be presented.

In future, you may wish to consider e-tickets, where available. As well as the electronic version - which you can store on any number of devices - you can also print your own backup copy (or copies) in paper format, if you wish.

 

[SockedBishop]

Thank you all for the responses!

However the mandatory reservations coupon with an Advance ticket is part of the ticket and it is not valid without it. Both parts make up the ticket.

That's good to know, I asked about this question a few years ago at a ticket office (can't remember which one) and was told I didn't need to keep it

This might be a daft question, but as well as being asked to buy another ticket, did they actually follow through and make you do so?

No after I kept saying I do have a valid ticket, while pointing to the one I showed him, he said he'll give me the "benefit of the doubt as there's been lots of confusion because of the weather". He did say something about in future, but I had kinda switched off at this point.

You were given permission to travel on that service by a member of staff, so legally speaking the conductor had no right to charge you regardless of the ticket's actual validity. That being said, the difficulty lies in proving this permission. This is why it can sometimes be advantageous (even if some may view it as undesirable) to obtain evidence of any verbal permission by means of a discreet audio recording on your phone.

I did ask the information desk to give me some written authorisation, but they didn't. I will think about doing a voice recording in future. Which staff members are authorised to give permission to travel?

However, it much easier to rely on the fact that your ticket would have been routed "Avanti & Connections". This means it isn't tied to one particular operator (as demonstrated by the itinerary including multiple operators) and is therefore valid on any other operator in the event of disruption. That means you shouldn't have been charged extra as your ticket was already valid on TPE.

Yes, my ticket says "Avanti & Connections". But the guard said as there were multiple northern services to Wigan NW and mentioned something about 2 hours -- I should've been on a Northern service. Just found this on the Northern website "If your Northern train is cancelled you can use your ticket on Transpennine Express, or LNER trains up to 2 hours before or 2 hours after at no extra cost." Which may be what he was talking about.

Have you been charged anything? If so, you need to request a refund; we are happy to proof read a letter if you want to draft one

If not, it may still be worth complaining to TPE about the conduct of their staff member.

Thankfully I wasn't. I'm not really after compensation, but if there's a chance it would improve other passenger's experience in the future, I'm happy to put a complaint in, what should I include in it?

You can't; some railway staff behave like this and there aren't sufficient safeguards in place to prevent them doing so.

I went through a fair bit of effort to check that my ticket was valid. Useful information on the rest of your post as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's good to know, I asked about this question a few years ago at a ticket office (can't remember which one) and was told I didn't need to keep it

For non-Advance tickets where they are just optional reservations then you don't need it - some confusion there I suspect, probably on their side!