Avanti West Coast Prosecution

[oliviah1111]

Hi I recently received an email from Avanti west coast about short fare travel. Twice I didn’t have enough money for the trip from Birmingham new street to Manchester as a full price ticket was around £30. So I booked the ticket from Birmingham to Stoke which is half the journey which was around £20. And then I booked a ticket from Stockport to Manchester Pic to exit the gates which cost around £4 (yes I only saved £6 but I literally didn’t have it in my bank so thought it was a smart idea clearly NOT!) I only done this twice I always pay full price for the train. I did it firstly on September 26 2024 so nearly 8 months ago and then again in February. They are saying if I don’t pay a £250 out of court settlement within 14 days it will be sent to their prosecutions team and I will have legal consequences? Not sure what this means? I am also a 20 year old with a very young baby so obviously want to avoid going to court. I can afford to pay the £250 but literally the day after the deadline. Helppp please! What do I do in this situation?

 

[AlterEgo]

What you've done is a criminal offence, so if you don't pay, they will take you to court and you will be convicted in the magistrates' court. In your circumstances I'd ask for a day's extension, but this would reply on the company's goodwill.

Why does the Avanti reply mention "far from being stupid"? What did you say that would make them reply with something like that?

 

[oliviah1111]

What you've done is a criminal offence, so if you don't pay, they will take you to court and you will be convicted in the magistrates' court. In your circumstances I'd ask for a day's extension, but this would reply on the company's goodwill.

Why does the Avanti reply mention "far from being stupid"? What did you say that would make them reply with something like that?

I’ve never travelled with Avanti west coast before and the email went to my spam so I well and truly thought it was a scam so said “this is a stupid scam I’ve never traveled with Avanti west coast before” I’ve since done my research and realised it’s real

What you've done is a criminal offence, so if you don't pay, they will take you to court and you will be convicted in the magistrates' court. In your circumstances I'd ask for a day's extension, but this would reply on the company's goodwill.

Why does the Avanti reply mention "far from being stupid"? What did you say that would make them reply with something like that?

What will happen in court? I’ve never been in this situation. Will this go away after I’ve paid the £250?

 

[ohnoes]

If you pay the £250 they are requesting, that will be the end of the matter.

Essentially they are offering you the option to pay £250 to avoid a potential court case.

Whether or not you should pay is a matter I’ll leave the more experienced forum members to comment on.

 

[Titfield]

Yes if you pay the £250 by the deadline the matter is concluded.

 

[MrJeeves]

Have you ever been stopped by a member of staff while travelling on any of these tickets? Or was this email out of the blue, and presumably based on analysis of tickets purchased from online retailers (read: Trainline)?

 

[oliviah1111]

Have you ever been stopped by a member of staff while travelling on any of these tickets? Or was this email out of the blue, and presumably based on analysis of tickets purchased from online retailers (read: Trainline)?

No the email was completely out of the blue which is why I thought it was a scam. I’ve not been stopped on the train.

 

[AlterEgo]

And you weren’t stopped at the gates in Manchester?

 

[MrJeeves]

If you haven't been stopped by any member of staff or had your details taken, my view here is that they have no conclusive evidence that you were the one travelling on these tickets. The onus is on them to prove that you were the one committing the offence.

We've seen emails like this from other operators before, and typically they aim to (a) scare you into paying a settlement; or (b) scare you into not doing this type of, essentially, fraud again.

I would recommend not admitting any liability, not paying the settlement offer, and instead ignoring the email. Of course I understand many people would be very anxious in doing this and would prefer to pay the settlement just to put their mind at ease. Whatever approach you take, I would highly recommend not admitting guilt for anything they claim even if you offer to pay the settlement.

They could attempt to reclaim the monies owed via civil means (i.e. "small claims"), but that isn't the same as a criminal matter. We've seen GWR start doing this for journeys outside of the 6 month window post-travel where prosecution is allowed. The burden of proof lies more on probabilities (i.e. "was it likely you travelled on these tickets which don't cover your whole journey") in civil matters, as I understand it.

 

[oliviah1111]

So if I essentially say it was someone else and not me they can’t take me to court ?

 

[MrJeeves]

So if I essentially say it was someone else and not me they can’t take me to court ?

I wouldn't suggest you say it was someone else. I'd suggest you say nothing.

Lying is far worse than just not replying.

 

[AlterEgo]

So if I essentially say it was someone else and not me they can’t take me to court ?

No. That’s lying and that will get you into a lot of trouble.

Please show us what you’ve replied to Avanti, as if it’s incriminated you, you will be forced to engage further and pay the settlement.

 

[oliviah1111]

I wouldn't suggest you say it was someone else. I'd suggest you say nothing.

Lying is far worse than just not replying.

I see, thanks very much for your help unfortunately i already replied days ago as they said they were going to take me to court and I got super scared.

 

[MrJeeves]

If all you replied to them with is what you said earlier:

this is a stupid scam I’ve never traveled with Avanti west coast before

I don't see any issue with leaving the matter there.

If you said more than that, it'd be helpful to know exactly what you said as AlterEgo asked above.

 

[oliviah1111]

If all you replied to them with is what you said earlier:


I don't see any issue with leaving the matter there.

If you said more than that, it'd be helpful to know exactly what you said as AlterEgo asked above.

unfortunately I said more. I got very scared and said I was sorry and stupid etc and asked if I could extend deadline to pay the fee. I think I would rather pay the fee just to put my mind at ease as the threats of going to court and having a criminal record are very scary. Thanks for your help.

unfortunately I said more. I got very scared and said I was sorry and stupid etc and asked if I could extend deadline to pay the fee. I think I would rather pay the fee just to put my mind at ease as the threats of going to court and having a criminal record are very scary. Thanks for your help.

I also sent pictures of my original tickets I had so I’ve definitely incriminated myself here how silly of me.

 

[MrJeeves]

Ah, yeah, it looks like you'll need to pay the settlement in this case to prevent it escalating.

As previously stated, it's worth asking if they can extend it by just one day to allow you to pay. We've seen TOCs be lienient when people co-operate with their investigations and hopefully that includes Avanti as well.

 

[scrapy]

The original email seems very presumptuous. How do avanti know that the OP doesn't have a valid ticket from Stoke to Stockport, purchased by another means? Eg a paper ticket from a ticket office. Yet it accuses them of short faring and doesn't even ask an explanation for mitigating evidence.

As the OP has now admitted the offence, I certainly wouldn't advise lying but I think the immediate accusation is poor from avanti as people make journeys on split tickets bought from different sources.

 

[AlterEgo]

The original email seems very presumptuous. How do avanti know that the OP doesn't have a valid ticket from Stoke to Stockport, purchased by another means? Eg a paper ticket from a ticket office. Yet it accuses them of short faring and doesn't even ask an explanation for mitigating evidence.

As the OP has now admitted the offence, I certainly wouldn't advise lying but I think the immediate accusation is poor from avanti as people make journeys on split tickets bought from different sources.

The original email is not included in the thread. The one you see has come after the OP has admitted the offences.

 

[WesternLancer]

The original email seems very presumptuous. How do avanti know that the OP doesn't have a valid ticket from Stoke to Stockport, purchased by another means? Eg a paper ticket from a ticket office. Yet it accuses them of short faring and doesn't even ask an explanation for mitigating evidence.

As the OP has now admitted the offence, I certainly wouldn't advise lying but I think the immediate accusation is poor from avanti as people make journeys on split tickets bought from different sources.

They know this because most people who do this sort of thing don’t have a paper ticket for the missing leg. They are fare evaders and it’s obvious. And then when challenged they admit it.

 

[johnny_t]

Sorry that this contains nothing helpful, but there are a couple of lessons to be learnt here:

1) Don't short fare
2) Don't respond to these sort of e-mails if you haven't been caught doing anything.
3) Most importantly, never, ever, ever respond to something that you think is a scam, even if just to tell them its a scam. Ever.

You could have easily avoided the £250 here, but at this stage it is better to just pay up.

 

[oliviah1111]

Update - the avanti west coast digital fraud team were very generous and withdrew the fine without me paying this was a warning to me to always pay full price tickets from now on

 

[Blinkbonny]

That's a good result for you, and not at all usual.

Avanti do seem to be something of an outlier compared to most other companies.

 

[30907]

Thanks for the update.

We rarely hear of Avanti incidents, and in particular "fishing trips."

In one sense you may have been lucky, but as others have said Avanti were not in a position to take legal action.

 

[johnny_t]

Update - the avanti west coast digital fraud team were very generous and withdrew the fine without me paying this was a warning to me to always pay full price tickets from now on

Nice result !!