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Bakerloo line re-extension to Watford Junction: why not now?

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Sprigibax

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The Bakerloo line is a sorry excuse for a tube line, with ancient trains, very few step-free stations and a proposed extension South London that looks unlikely to be finished in the next decade, if ever. But with the Watford Junction re-extension, the track is all there and, correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t see any reason preventing Watford from getting Bakerloo line services by next week apart from all the map changes that would need to take place. But with the Overground rebrand currently going on, all the maps are being changed anyway, so why not take the opportunity and do it now? Terminate the Lioness line at either Queens Park or Willesden Junction and there you go, more Bakerloo line services and the ability to give easier access to stations from Queens Park to Harrow.
 
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JonathanH

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I can’t see any reason preventing Watford from getting Bakerloo line services by next week apart from all the map changes that would need to take place.
Lack of rolling stock and traincrew would be a starter. Would the London Overground staff just transfer over in your plan?

You could equally ask why more Bakerloo trains don't run to Harrow & Wealdstone, instead of terminating at Queens Park.

The Bakerloo line is a sorry excuse for a tube line, with ancient trains, very few step-free stations and a proposed extension South London that looks unlikely to be finished in the next decade, if ever.
Or started, indeed.

The step down into the Bakerloo Line trains would certainly be an issue with running to Watford.
 

SynthD

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The opportunity that you see has passed, the new signs have been up for a month with vinyl stickers on top. When the trains are new, wherever the trains terminate, it will still have old stations without step free access.

The overground trains hold more people. The overground doesn’t have a turn back siding at Queens Park, the next real siding is at Harrow. Terminating at any joint station would be disruptive. If the aim is to reduce the stations with compromise height platforms, then terminate the Bakerloo at Queens Park and run empty to Stonebridge Park depot.

The changes at Old Oak Common are an opportunity (that shouldn’t be taken) to end the Bakerloo there. The line comes from a new flyover after Willesden, providing a backup to the Elizabeth line. Some trains would go to Stonebridge Park, unless a depot is built under further OOC development.
 

stuu

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What would be the obvious benefit? It would need a fair bit of work to do, and increasing the number of stations with problematic boarding doesn't sound like an easy sell. 4tph beyond Harrow is absolutely fine to meet demand, and no one in their right mind would use it to get into central London
 

cle

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Willesden Junction should be rebuilt as two islands and turn more Bakerloos there, especially if BLE happens and much more frequency is needed at the southern end - and not blocking up the line at QP.
 

Bikeman78

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I am surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of 4th rail beyond Harrow.
 

Wolfie

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The Bakerloo line is a sorry excuse for a tube line, with ancient trains, very few step-free stations and a proposed extension South London that looks unlikely to be finished in the next decade, if ever. But with the Watford Junction re-extension, the track is all there and, correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t see any reason preventing Watford from getting Bakerloo line services by next week apart from all the map changes that would need to take place. But with the Overground rebrand currently going on, all the maps are being changed anyway, so why not take the opportunity and do it now? Terminate the Lioness line at either Queens Park or Willesden Junction and there you go, more Bakerloo line services and the ability to give easier access to stations from Queens Park to Harrow.
Perhaps because Transport for London (please note the last word) should focus on London! Given that Hertfordshire failed to finance sorting out the Metropolitan line l fail to see how your plan gets paid for. Certainly London council tax payers shouldn't pay!

What would be the obvious benefit? It would need a fair bit of work to do, and increasing the number of stations with problematic boarding doesn't sound like an easy sell. 4tph beyond Harrow is absolutely fine to meet demand, and no one in their right mind would use it to get into central London
Abso-bloody-lutely!

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of 4th rail beyond Harrow.
Details, dear boy, details..... lol
 

SynthD

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Willesden Junction should be rebuilt as two islands
Does that involve rebuilding the road bridge and road access to the station and depot? It’s a very skinny, oval shaped site.
It’s mostly still there just need repotting and reconnecting
Is the third rail powered by fresh compost :p
 

cle

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I meant rebuilding to be two (probably slimmer) islands. Might even be a spanish / three platform situation, but ideally four lines - good to turn 6-12tph or so dependent. Not really needed for LO, and the signal too - but in theory could turn from Euston too of course
 

HamworthyGoods

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The Bakerloo line is a sorry excuse for a tube line, with ancient trains, very few step-free stations and a proposed extension South London that looks unlikely to be finished in the next decade, if ever. But with the Watford Junction re-extension, the track is all there and, correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t see any reason preventing Watford from getting Bakerloo line services by next week apart from all the map changes that would need to take place. But with the Overground rebrand currently going on, all the maps are being changed anyway, so why not take the opportunity and do it now? Terminate the Lioness line at either Queens Park or Willesden Junction and there you go, more Bakerloo line services and the ability to give easier access to stations from Queens Park to Harrow.

The Bakerloo already struggles with cancellations due to a shortage of survivable trains, where do you propose getting the extra trains for this from?
 

Wolfie

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The Bakerloo already struggles with cancellations due to a shortage of survivable trains, where do you propose getting the extra trains for this from?
I hope that you mean serviceable or the Bakerloo line is much worse than l realised lol....
 

cle

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Given new stock is being actively discussed as a continuation of the Picc, it’s a fair assumption there might be more, not least addl options for Lewisham.

I’d think anything to Hayes/BJ would be far into the future, and another order. Watford to Hayes would really be something!
 
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no one in their right mind would use it to get into central London
I would actually disagree with that point. That is because with most of the intermediate stations, the existing service is a slow service into London Euston. A hypothetical bakerloo line service wouldnt take much longer to reach Central London, and then runs further into central london directly, saving the need to change for the tube at Euston at present, which would make up for the marginally slower service into Central london itself.

Obviously at present though, the infrastructure on the bakerloo line is pretty bad, with old trains, outdated signals, and it terminates within central london. You would probably need new trains, given many 72 stocks have now been scrapped, and the remaining fleet are over 50 years old, so you would create plenty of operational issues on the line. And the big one, there is no functional fourth rail beyond Harrow, as its either been lifted or its far too old to ever be reactived, so that would need to be relaid.

All of those costs, just for serving about 6 stations, some of which already have sufficient services, or they have alternative express services into central london, which could be increased in frequency by adding in stops to some services (such as the LNWR Tring service) if demand ever justified it at, say at Bushey. In general, capacity could be increased on the overground, because Watford DC line/Lioness line trains used by 5 cars in length and now they are 4. If required, I am sure TFL with the right funding could order extra trailer carriages to make some of them 5 cars in length, which could boost capacity by up to 25%.

In general, it maybe could be looked at in the long term, but I think at this time cheaper options are available, and only if the stations between Harrow and Watford J actually needed more capacity.
 

Class15

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I would actually disagree with that point. That is because with most of the intermediate stations, the existing service is a slow service into London Euston. A hypothetical bakerloo line service wouldnt take much longer to reach Central London, and then runs further into central london directly, saving the need to change for the tube at Euston at present, which would make up for the marginally slower service into Central london itself.
The issue is that the LNWR service is so much faster than the DC lines, whether it’s Bakerloo or LO, and most people are going to take the faster trains.
 

LU_timetabler

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Putting it simply, the Bakerloo hardly ever had a full service to WFJ, just a couple of trains in each peak, and that was only to make use of stabling at Croxley Green. The additional tube trains to run to Watford aren't available. The 4th rail would have to be reinstalled. The current LO service to WFJ is plenty adequate, plus the current signalling needs 4 or 5 minute headway north of Harrow. The cost to re-extend cannot be justified.
 

Belperpete

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I would actually disagree with that point. That is because with most of the intermediate stations, the existing service is a slow service into London Euston. A hypothetical bakerloo line service wouldnt take much longer to reach Central London, and then runs further into central london directly, saving the need to change for the tube at Euston at present, which would make up for the marginally slower service into Central london itself.
Surely anyone currently wanting to change onto the tube is going to do a same platform transfer at somewhere like Wembley, getting off the LO service and getting on the following Bakerloo service. This is simple and quick, adding at most a couple of.minutes onto the journey compared to if there had been a through Bakerloo train from Watford. The additional resources needed to run Bakerloo services through to Watford would be totally disproportionate to the minimal benefit gained in saving this simple change.
 
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The issue is that the LNWR service is so much faster than the DC lines, whether it’s Bakerloo or LO, and most people are going to take the faster trains.
Yes, i do acknowledge that. That point was aimed at the stations not served by LNWR trains, so Carpenders Park, Headstone Lane, Hatch End and Watford High Street. For those stations, the Bakerloo line may get used, given many people will prefer a direct train into central london, rather than changing at Euston (for Northern/Victoria line) ot Wembley (for Bakerloo) at present.

Of course though, I obviously get at this point in time, the business case would not add up, and it would cost a lot of money. I would only ever seriously recommend it as perhaps a more long term solution, if and only if demand could be justified.
 

cle

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They could transfer to the Bakerloo in droves at H&W, are they?

And the Kenton/Wembley users take their faster options (the Met) - this isn’t a high usage line north of Wembley Central.

Some folks in the broader area do a longer stint in on the Jubilee admittedly - but many jump on the Met for a spell also.
 

Peter Mugridge

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If they could find a way of turning twice as many Bakerloo trains round at Queen's Park as they can at present without disrupting the timetable, I'd suggest it would be more logical to terminate everything there* and double to Overground frequency between Euston and Watford instead.

*At the beginning and end of the day you'd still have ecs moves between Queen's Park and Stonebridge park for the depot, of course.
 

Class15

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If they could find a way of turning twice as many Bakerloo trains round at Queen's Park as they can at present without disrupting the timetable, I'd suggest it would be more logical to terminate everything there* and double to Overground frequency between Euston and Watford instead.

*At the beginning and end of the day you'd still have ecs moves between Queen's Park and Stonebridge park for the depot, of course.
Can’t double frequency to Euston. Maybe some via Primrose Hill but then there is the issue of pushing them through Camden Road and the bottleneck there.
 

JonathanH

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I'd suggest it would be more logical to terminate everything there* and double to Overground frequency between Euston and Watford instead.
I'm not convinced that it would be desirable to have 8tph coming from the DC line into Euston in terms of enabling the LNR service to continue at its current level.
 

A S Leib

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I'm not convinced that it would be desirable to have 8tph coming from the DC line into Euston in terms of enabling the LNR service to continue at its current level.
Especially as we've recently had a thread on how demand at Euston could temporarily be reduced or diverted to handle a rebuild of the existing platforms.
 

The Planner

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If they could find a way of turning twice as many Bakerloo trains round at Queen's Park as they can at present without disrupting the timetable, I'd suggest it would be more logical to terminate everything there* and double to Overground frequency between Euston and Watford instead.

*At the beginning and end of the day you'd still have ecs moves between Queen's Park and Stonebridge park for the depot, of course.
Leaves very little room for performance considering the 6 minute headway between Harrow and Watford High Street.
 

cle

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We have to consider that one day Lewisham (++) will need 28-32 tph type service. My Willesden idea is mainly for that future, as the Bakerloo will need the Stonebridge depot more than ever. Would anywhere on the Hayes line ever be usable for stabling or depot services?

The then-former (current) Elephant station may be useful I suppose, if pointing the wrong way.
 

freetoview33

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If you're coming from the West by train into Paddington it would really help as it would avoid the need to head to Euston (which is what most train apps say is the best route)
 

JonathanH

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Would anywhere on the Hayes line ever be usable for stabling or depot services?
The site of Tesco at Elmers End looks like it could probably accommodate a depot with the supermarket rebuilt on top?
 
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