Balkan states

[Hoofhearted]

Hi again. Following on from my request a few days ago for advice on Portugal at Easter. In the summer my son and I are planning an extensive tour of the former Yugoslavian provinces of Croatia, Serbia, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosovo and Bosnia Herzogovina. We've already done Slovenia so we can avoid it, for now. We will have around 14 days to explore these fascinating countries, but we know that as a result of the Balkan Wars in the 1990's, very few are linked by rail, and some have little or no railway systems at all. Could anyone out there suggest feasible options for our trip? We don't mind using buses as the only other alternative to trains, but we would like to avoid long bus journeys (3hrs plus) if possible. Your thoughts please. Many thanks. Robert & David (South West Wales).

 

[181]

If you get yourself a copy of the European Rail Timetable it will show you what train services should be available (plus a few buses and ferries). The boat service along the coast appears to be less extensive than it used to be, but you can still get from Split to Dubrovnik.

Have you looked at Seat61?

See https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/europe.htm#Bosnia for the remaining 'real' industrial steam activity in Bosnia.

This site is no longer updated, but you might find it of some interest: https://www.balkanology.com/.

My direct experience of Croatia and Bosnia is from 2012 and 2013, when train services were less limited than now, so my experience of buses is limited to the Croatian coastal route and local buses around Tuzla; and I haven't been to the other countries on your list. Although I don't mind sharing anything of what I remember that might be useful to you, there will probably be others here with more relevant experience.

 

[dutchflyer]

To start the good news: ALL seem to have still the odd train running-perhaps except ALBania.
Countries IN the EU tend to offer slightly better service: HU-ROM-BUlg-also even interconnected INTernational.
INternational links are generally the weak point: very bad or non-existent.
Unless you also cover the route to/fro there by train, a pass is of very little to no value, as local fares tend to be still quite cheap-plus you avoid ´pay for nothing´ if the service is again cancelled, there is yet another strike or whatever.
Unless you are really determined to go by train as much as can do: it will cost you amounts of time to do these quaint train-local bus-walk over border-local bus-train again for some short distance etc, compared to the direct bus (usually a plenty and no need to be anxious about fullness-just buy ticket for next one at busstation=also much more choice as just that FLIX)-but that yes, it will take more as 3 hrs to do the normal capital to capital connections.
Plenty of info is also to be found on the interrail/eurail community forum, as those not knowing a thing or determined to get their pass worth out of it, go to.

 

[SandsofEss]

I found this thread from a few months ago very helpful (if somewhat depressing as a fan of international railways):

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-in-southeastern-europe.249389/#post-6244388

Perhaps you could post in there and ask RVR if they know of any updates.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Croatia still has a fairly decent network around Zagreb and to Rijeka/Split.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One recent change is the opening by Croatia of the Pelješac Bridge on the Adriatic Highway between Split and Dubrovnik, which avoids the short BiH stretch of coast at Neum with its two border posts.
That has shortened journey times in Dalmatia, but doesn't help Croatia-Bosnia links.

From what I have read, the main line upgrade between Novi Sad and Belgrade in Serbia is finished, with more/faster trains running.
They are starting work on upgrading the Vojvodina section up to Subotica now.
Budapest-Belgrade services are still disrupted and I think may be diverted via Szeged soon, while Hungary upgrades its section of the direct line.

One result of the rebuilding since the Yugoslav wars is that the new/replaced sections in Croatia and Serbia are modern and quite fast, while the legacy sections remain slow.

Croatia is now in the Schengen regime, which should avoid passport controls with Slovenia at Dobova.

 

[Watershed]

Serbian railways are in a terrible state, with the exception of the section between Novi Sad and Belgrade which has been upgraded using Chinese investment.

I took the Optima Express from Villach (Austria) to Edirne (Turkey) earlier this year; the 460km section across Serbia took nearly a full day, a lot of it running at 5-10mph over track in awful condition.

This is currently the only other 'international' passenger service to/from/through Serbia, other than the daily (twice daily during summer) service to Bar in Montenegro.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I took the Optima Express from Villach (Austria) to Edirne (Turkey) earlier this year; the 460km section across Serbia took nearly a full day, a lot of it running at 5-10mph over track in awful condition.

Work is about to start on upgrading Belgrade-Niš (with some major realignments).
The line from Niš to the Bulgarian border at Dimitrovgrad has also been electrified which I believe completes wiring Belgrade-Sofia-Istanbul.

 

[Watershed]

Work is about to start on upgrading Belgrade-Niš (with some major realignments).
The line from Niš to the Bulgarian border at Dimitrovgrad has also been electrified which I believe completes wiring Belgrade-Sofia-Istanbul.

The line from Niš was possibly the worst of the lot; Niš station looked frankly abandoned. The line from there to Dimitrovgrad remained unelectrified - we changed over to this class 666 diesel locomotive (a GM one similar to the NIR 110 or CIÉ 071 class), the fifth of seven on the journey.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well there's this on the Belgrade-Niš upgrade (just starting apparently).

European funding to support Beograd – Niš route modernisation

SERBIA: The European Bank for Reconstruction & Development, the European Union and the European Investment Bank have agreed to provide a joint financing package worth €2·2bn towards the modernisation of the 230 km Beograd - Niš main line.

www.railwaygazette.com

And this on Niš-Dimitrovgrad electrification, from 5 years ago.
Though getting the funds from the lenders to shovels on the ground may be harder than issuing the PR.

Serbia – Bulgaria line modernisation agreement signed

SERBIA: An agreement to co-finance modernisation of the 104 km line from Niš to Dimitrovgrad near the Bulgarian border was signed by the European Investment Bank, the Ministry of Construction, Transport & Infrastructure and railway infrastructure manager Infra ŽS on January 31. Upgrading of the...

www.railwaygazette.com

An agreement to co-finance modernisation of the 104 km line from Niš to Dimitrovgrad near the Bulgarian border was signed by the European Investment Bank, the Ministry of Construction, Transport & Infrastructure and railway infrastructure manager Infra ŽS on January 31.

 

[nwales58]

Freight is an important part of these potential upgrades, they won't happen for passengers primarily.

Others will have more up to date knowledge of current flows than I have but before the Balkan wars there used to be much much more long distance/international rail freight on the Sophia-Belgrade-Zagreb-etc axis than now.

Crossing a customs border costs freight time, often in the order of day(s) in the old world that Serbia is still in. Anything from Bulgaria or Turkey is already with the EU customs zone and therefore highly likely to stick with routes through Romania and Hungary nowadays. It would take substantially shorter journey times and capacity plus a transit treaty with Serbia for much to go that way in future. Maybe the EU trying to pull Serbia back into the neighbourhood will help, but transit infrastructure is probably low on their priorities compared to rule of law and so on.

 

[Richard Scott]

Hi again. Following on from my request a few days ago for advice on Portugal at Easter. In the summer my son and I are planning an extensive tour of the former Yugoslavian provinces of Croatia, Serbia, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosovo and Bosnia Herzogovina. We've already done Slovenia so we can avoid it, for now. We will have around 14 days to explore these fascinating countries, but we know that as a result of the Balkan Wars in the 1990's, very few are linked by rail, and some have little or no railway systems at all. Could anyone out there suggest feasible options for our trip? We don't mind using buses as the only other alternative to trains, but we would like to avoid long bus journeys (3hrs plus) if possible. Your thoughts please. Many thanks. Robert & David (South West Wales).

All are feasible but outside of summer timetable you will probably need bus transfer between countries (and within country in Bosnia as two halves run independently). To be honest hiring a car is a good option especially for covering Bosnia (especially if want to see steam operations) and Kosovo. I've travelled on trains in all of those countries so if want any information feel free to message.
As alluded to elsewhere Slovenia and Croatia fairly easy to navigate and Serbia not too bad as believe trains run between Zagreb and Belgrade.

 

[rg177]

Trains don't currently run between Zagreb and Belgrade.

There was supposed to be a service resuming from Szeged to Subotica in October but the apparent launch day came and went with little reason given as to why there'd been no movement.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Could anyone out there suggest feasible options for our trip?

A reasonable option:

Zagreb-Split, followed by getting a bus from Split to Ploce. From Ploce, you'll need to check, but there should be at least one train a day going to Sarajevo in summer. You can then do Sarajevo-Doboj-Bihać. From Bihać, you can go to Novi Grad and up to Hrvatska Kostajnica by bus, before taking trains to Vukovar.

Vukovar to the nearest station in Serbia (probably Novi Sad?) should be easily doable by bus, and then you can get to Belgrade and explore around there. Belgrade-Bar is well worth it too.

Having said that, train travel is incredibly tedious and slow, and I'd recommend rather hiring a car and exploring the various local lines instead.

 

[takno]

Unless you actually get sick on buses or are particularly anxious to do it by train I'd probably recommend doing it mostly by bus. The buses in the area are cheap, often quite regular, and less uncomfortable than many of the cramped UK buses. This will open large and quite pleasant areas for exploration.

It's also worth considering taxis for shorter trips. These can be cheaper than the bus for a couple of adults, although as with anywhere you aren't familiar with the taxis you'll want to negotiate the price in advance and take reasonable precautions in picking somebody reputable.

 

[181]

Does anyone have any advice on how to find out about buses in that part of the world, i.e what routes are available and what the timetables are? Train services, such as they are, are conveniently set out (at least in outline) in the European Rail Timetable, and presumably there's usually only one main train operator (two in Bosnia) per country who may have information on their website, but is there anything equivalent for buses?

 

[takno]

Does anyone have any advice on how to find out about buses in that part of the world, i.e what routes are available and what the timetables are? Train services, such as they are, are conveniently set out (at least in outline) in the European Rail Timetable, and presumably there's usually only one main train operator (two in Bosnia) per country who may have information on their website, but is there anything equivalent for buses?

I haven't been since 2019 but I found the advance info to be pretty awful. They tend to have fairly complete timetables in the bus stations themselves, but otherwise I was mostly doing it based on what it said on rome2rio and hoping for the best. There was a croation company that covered Croatia and Montenegro, but I didn't find them any more reassuring than just checking at the bus station the night before. What I did find was that there were almost always a lot more buses than advertised, where with trains it's not unusual for advertised and timetabled stuff to just not happen.

 

[43096]

The line from Niš was possibly the worst of the lot; Niš station looked frankly abandoned. The line from there to Dimitrovgrad remained unelectrified - we changed over to this class 666 diesel locomotive (a GM one similar to the NIR 110 or CIÉ 071 class), the fifth of seven on the journey.

A bit of historical trivia on that traction: the fleet of four Class 666s was ordered to power Tito's Presidential train.

 

[Watershed]

A bit of historical trivia on that traction: the fleet of four Class 666s was ordered to power Tito's Presidential train.

Yes, I'd heard that from some of the other passengers onboard (it mostly was a mixture of Turks and people there for the train or journey). Sadly the limited linespeed meant there was little in the way of 'thrash' to be heard.

 

[181]

I haven't been since 2019 but I found the advance info to be pretty awful. They tend to have fairly complete timetables in the bus stations themselves, but otherwise I was mostly doing it based on what it said on rome2rio and hoping for the best. There was a croation company that covered Croatia and Montenegro, but I didn't find them any more reassuring than just checking at the bus station the night before. What I did find was that there were almost always a lot more buses than advertised, where with trains it's not unusual for advertised and timetabled stuff to just not happen.

Thankyou. My experience at Tuzla in 2012 and 2013 is that the bus station handled long-distance buses (which are the main subject of this discussion), but weren't very helpful with buses to and from nearby towns -- they gave me the times of a handful (presumably those that left from the bus station itself), but there were actually many more, which I found out about from the tourist office and from a list of departures displayed at a stop outside the bus station (one of only two bus stops I saw with any timetable information). All my trains in Croatia and Bosnia turned up eventually (except for a planned replacement bus for an hour or so out of Zagreb, which the ticket office told me about when I bought my ticket the day before), but that's a fairly limited sample.

Do long-distance buses have toilets?

 

[takno]

Do long-distance buses have toilets?

Good question - I don't think I'd have used them but they may well have been there. They tended to have reasonable breaks every couple of hours, not least because everybody needed to smoke

 

[zero]

This summer I travelled by bus in Macedonia and Albania. I forget the websites now but I was able to find all the timetables online, which were accurate at least for departure, though the arrival times were optimistic. It was even possible to buy the tickets online, which a few people did, including a strange elderly lady who thought you could reserve seats

One person got left behind at a toilet break, but after her friends realised she was missing the driver did agree to go back, causing a 20 minute delay. If you're travelling solo...

Young Albanians stand by the roadside in random villages and hope to hitch a ride on the buses, but sometimes they get too full even for standees - and they usually ride for free although they offer cash to the driver.

 

[rg177]

After my mention of direct Szeged-Subotica trains above, it seems that they're theoretically meant to resume tomorrow:

vagonWEB » Řazení vlaků » 2023 » Trať SRB-34

 

[nwales58]

Useful, and frequent for that part of the world. But then Subotica-Novi Sad is currently ripped up for upgrading although Novi Sad-Belgrade is complete.

Using the journey planner on srbvoz.rs shows one train a day Subotica-Sombor-Novi Sad taking 4 hours (it's about 80km in a straight line), although I'm useless at Slav languages so someone could work out more.

Serbia is no longer cut off for passenger traffic!

 

[moonarrow458]

To start the good news: ALL seem to have still the odd train running-perhaps except ALBania.

Albania does technically have a very limited passenger service operating 3 times a week on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays from Elbasan to Plazh and return.

They usually also run a service once a week in the spring from Shkoder to Lac and return altho it remains to be seen whether this runs in 2024.
Unlikely to be of use to you, but having been on it myself, it certainly is a novelty, if very dilapidated, no lighting, graffitied and smashed windows, tracks that look abandoned. Ex deutsche bahn coaches from the 80s hauled by old chzech locos.Quite surreal, and very cheap, usually less than a pound for a single ticket

 

[P Binnersley]

Albania does technically have a very limited passenger service operating 3 times a week on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays from Elbasan to Plazh and return.

The train does run! I saw it a Plazh a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately not useful for where I wanted to go. 145 LEK (£1.25) for any brave enough to sample the 2h50m to Elbasan. Track laying for the new line to Tirana has commenced at Durres and reached ~1km so far.

 

[Hoofhearted]

Lots of thanks to everyone who's taken the time to respond and offer advice. Your contributions are greatly appreciated. however, at this point I would like to concentrate on one route in particular - Belgrade to Bar. As I understand it there is a day train in each direction, and a night train as well, conveying sleeper accommodation. But I also understand that these trains are of poor quality, especially the toilets, and considering that the journey is 11 hours long, that sounds rather worrying! Has anyone caught these trains, and what are your thoughts on the journey/accommodation?

 

[nwales58]

suggestion: add Belgrade-Novi Sad side trip to experience 200km/h Stadler units as a surreal contrast to the rest of the network.

 

[Zamracene749]

Does anyone have any advice on how to find out about buses in that part of the world, i.e what routes are available and what the timetables are? Train services, such as they are, are conveniently set out (at least in outline) in the European Rail Timetable, and presumably there's usually only one main train operator (two in Bosnia) per country who may have information on their website, but is there anything equivalent for buses?

Try this link for coach services in the Balkans, it's reasonably good- https://www.autobusni-kolodvor.com/en/default.aspx
Apologies in advance if I've somehow broken any forum rules in the manner that I posted that link!

 

[Watershed]

Lots of thanks to everyone who's taken the time to respond and offer advice. Your contributions are greatly appreciated. however, at this point I would like to concentrate on one route in particular - Belgrade to Bar. As I understand it there is a day train in each direction, and a night train as well, conveying sleeper accommodation. But I also understand that these trains are of poor quality, especially the toilets, and considering that the journey is 11 hours long, that sounds rather worrying! Has anyone caught these trains, and what are your thoughts on the journey/accommodation?

The day train only runs during the summer months. I took it this summer and I'll admit it was not a premium experience by any stretch of the imagination, with the train overcrowded despite being "reservations compulsory", dirty windows and air conditioning that barely worked (in one coach only). In all fairness, I think this sort of stuff goes with the territory and I wasn't holding out great expectations.

I found the biggest issue was that although smoking was nominally banned, people were doing it in the vestibules anyway (the guards took no notice) and the smoke obviously wafted into the carriages. Can't say whether that element is any better on the sleeper - on the Optima Express, which passes through Serbia, people were smoking in their cabins (even though there was a dedicated smoking area in the buffet car!) and the smell similarly came through.

The most spectacular views were within Montenegro, especially in the section just north of Podgorica; the southern part of the journey within Serbia (and the brief non-stop run through Bosnia) was also very nice but I think you would see most of what's worth seeing if you took a domestic Montenegrin train to/from the border station of Bijelo Polje. I found the line from Podgorica to Nikšić highly scenic and Nikšić itself was a charming town to visit. You can clamber through the ruins of an ancient fortress near the station, affording excellent views over the valley the town lies in.

Bar was a bit too touristy for my liking - all tailored towards the Italians who visit on the ferries.