Best UK Train Manufacturer?

[Sorcerer]

First things first I want to be clear that this isn't a question as to which of the options is your favourite manufacturer, but rather which one is arguably the best in terms of things such as reliability, efficiency, longevity and other engineering and technical factors. Now I myself cannot personally give a solid answer but I would argue that Alstom are good contenders because of designs such as the Pendolino which in my opinion has aged very well for rolling stock whose oldest units are reaching twenty years old. The design itself may be outdated and no longer meets crashworthiness and other modern technical standards, but it seems to still work as efficiently as ever. By contrast I would argue that CAF, while their designs may be aesthetically pleasing (I'm particularly fond of the 195 and 331) it's hard to deny that there are systematic design flaws in some of their stock, not just in the UK, but worldwide. Cracks in the bodywork, bogies and damper brackets are notable examples of this. What's everybody else's thoughts on this matter though?

 

[fgwrich]

Without a shadow of a doubt, Siemens. The design and the quality of the Desiro fleet is unquestionable - the fact that, after close to 20 years of daily service, the South Western units are on their first refurbishment and repaint is a testament to that. Yes, they are somewhat heavy, but baring operator spec aside their quality of construction is superb.

Their reliability has also been excellent (bar a few false starts with some of the newer models). Rather unlike some of their competitors… eg Alstom, Bombardier and CAF.

 

[LethalDrizzle]

Another vote for Siemens on the basis of various Desiro flavours. They hardly set the pulse racing, but in terms of quiet, rugged efficiency they seem to hit the spot remarkably well, and I'd be amazed if there weren't a fair few still going at 40.

 

[Some guy]

It’s got to be alstom. The Pendolinos are brilliant trains and are one of the few trains that tilt in the country and are the best train the UK has had in the past 20 years

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the assumption the OP means "manufacturer of trains for the UK" then it's a hard choice between Siemens and Stadler, though I voted for Stadler because level boarding is such a game-changer.

 

[Sorcerer]

On the assumption the OP means "manufacturer of trains for the UK" then it's a hard choice between Siemens and Stadler, though I voted for Stadler because level boarding is such a game-changer.

You were correct in your assumption, though I understand that it may have been slightly unclear, especially with my mention of CAF's systematic design flaws being worldwide and not just a UK problem.

 

[ash39]

Judging purely on how well-built they seem from a passenger perspective, Siemens. Everything works, very few rattles, good ride quality.

Subjectively, I think their products tend to look nicer than other manufacturers too.

 

[DarloRich]

A1 locomotive trust

 

[Non Multi]

General Motors Electro-Motive Division.

 

[py_megapixel]

It’s got to be alstom. The Pendolinos are brilliant trains and are one of the few trains that tilt in the country and are the best train the UK has had in the past 20 years

I'd consider the Pendolino the exception to prove the rule, looking at the other things Alstom has produced.

It's not like other manufacturers can't build tilting stock. We just haven't seen any of it in this country because there is only a very limited scope to use the tilting capability.

 

[Bertone]

I have to vote Alstom - they pay my pension

 

[Sorcerer]

I'd consider the Pendolino the exception to prove the rule, looking at the other things Alstom has produced.

Which particular trains do you refer to in this regard? I understand the Coradia (more specifically the Class 180) might've had a few technical issues in it's early days and was plagued with reliability problems, but I'd also argue that the Class 373 is also a very solid train.

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s got to be alstom. The Pendolinos are brilliant trains and are one of the few trains that tilt in the country and are the best train the UK has had in the past 20 years

The original question is about today though, not 20 years ago. The 458 junk would easily cancel out the Pendolino at the time they were built…

 

[mmh]

The original question is about today though, not 20 years ago. The 458 junk would easily cancel out the Pendolino at the time they were built…

The 458 pre-dates the Pendolino though. In the meantime Alstom/Bombardier (the OP has put them together, which seems reasonable) have delivered more successful new trains in terms of units delivered than any other manufacturer, I'd hazard a guess. Countless turbostars and electrostars

 

[Trainbike46]

My answer is stadler: their trains for GA are fantastic, and a real step-up for the the rural services. Compared to other manufacturers they were relatively close to on-time. The level boarding and sliding step are essential to ensuring the railways are convenient to use for all, whether that is parents with buggies, wheelchair users or people with a lot of luggage!

The flexibility of the powerpack approach is a plus too in my view

The 458 pre-dates the Pendolino though. In the meantime Alstom/Bombardier (the OP has put them together, which seems reasonable) have delivered more successful new trains in terms of units delivered than any other manufacturer, I'd hazard a guess. Countless turbostars and electrostars

but they also have had a lot of delays and issues, such as with the 720 fleet for GA and the 701s for SWR

 

[fgwrich]

Which particular trains do you refer to in this regard? I understand the Coradia (more specifically the Class 180) might've had a few technical issues in it's early days and was plagued with reliability problems, but I'd also argue that the Class 373 is also a very solid train.

I wouldn't say in their early days - it's well known that, from a Passenger perspective, the 180s are excellent. From a mechanical perspective, they are absolute rubbish. It's a shame because between a Voyager or an Adelante, I'd rather take the Adelante any day of the week!

 

[py_megapixel]

Which particular trains do you refer to in this regard? I understand the Coradia (more specifically the Class 180) might've had a few technical issues in it's early days and was plagued with reliability problems, but I'd also argue that the Class 373 is also a very solid train.

The 180s are still rather unreliable even 20 years on. Considering how tiny of an operation Grand Central is, we see surprisingly many reports on the forum of them breaking down and causing issues on the East Coast.

Then there are of course the 458s, which in their original state were so bad that SWT actually ordered a replacement fleet from Siemens after only a few years of service.

The 458 pre-dates the Pendolino though. In the meantime Alstom/Bombardier (the OP has put them together, which seems reasonable) have delivered more successful new trains in terms of units delivered than any other manufacturer, I'd hazard a guess. Countless turbostars and electrostars

Alstom and Bombardier had nothing to do with each other when the Turbostars and Electrostars were built. Giving Alstom credit for those is very disingenuous.

 

[Sorcerer]

I wouldn't say in their early days - it's well known that, from a Passenger perspective, the 180s are excellent. From a mechanical perspective, they are absolute rubbish. It's a shame because between a Voyager or an Adelante, I'd rather take the Adelante any day of the week!

I can't say I've been on one personally but I would very much love to try one of Grand Central's 180s. Their HST stock was a great experience when I first rode on them many years ago.

The 180s are still rather unreliable even 20 years on. Considering how tiny of an operation Grand Central is, we see surprisingly many reports on the forum of them breaking down and causing issues on the East Coast.

Out of interest, how does this compare with it's cousin the 175 in the same regards?

 

[trebor79]

My answer is stadler: their trains for GA are fantastic, and a real step-up for the the rural services. Compared to other manufacturers they were relatively close to on-time. The level boarding and sliding step are essential to ensuring the railways are convenient to use for all, whether that is parents with buggies, wheelchair users or people with a lot of luggage!

Agree. The regional units are perfect for the job they do and the power pack means unless you're sitting close to it there's no engine noise or vibration and you get as relaxing a journey as hauled stock. The 745's are also very good on the intercity, though they don't seem to be using the internal glass doors these days which means they aren't as peaceful as they might be.

My only real complaint of both units is the smaller of the toilet cubicles is too small and I wouldn't want to have to sit down in one of them as that would mean almost certainly coming into contact with the walls surrounding the toilet, which are visibly splashed with water/urine from others using the toilet as the walls are so close to the bowl.

 

[CBlue]

Very impressed with Stadler's units on GA, both 755s and 745s are lovely and smooth to travel on - a huge upgrade over the knackered LHCS and rattling Turbostars they replaced and definitely nicer to travel on than the 720s over the same stretches of track. Siemens would come a close second - not experienced many Desiros but can't fail to be impressed at the pace a 700 can set, acceleration feels pretty effortless with them.

 

[QSK19]

I think that Stadler have built a fantastic product in the FLIRT… I really like the 745s and 755s; and looking forward to seeing the 231s & 756s. And things like level boarding and the concept of putting the 755 diesel engine in its own mini-car in the middle of the train is a great idea.

I will never, in a month of Sundays, vote for Siemens; though that, admittedly, is for a more sentimental reason than anything - I worked at Bombardier when we lost TL to the 700s and resent those trains with a passion. For all of Bombardier’s numerous faults, the constant fear of the dreaded R word hanging over us made it a very worrying time. But, as I say, that’s more personal and not based on anything mechanical.

Another vote for Siemens on the basis of various Desiro flavours. They hardly set the pulse racing, but in terms of quiet, rugged efficiency they seem to hit the spot remarkably well, and I'd be amazed if there weren't a fair few still going at 40.

God I hope not - not sure I could put up with 20 more years of the 360s

 

[Islineclear3_1]

God I hope not - not sure I could put up with 20 more years of the 360s

As mentioned elsewhere, the 360s were great trains when introduced to FGE and were very reliable. Any train will cause problems if left to rot....

 

[QSK19]

As mentioned elsewhere, the 360s were great trains when introduced to FGE and were very reliable. Any train will cause problems if left to rot....

Was meant in jest. Yes, the Desiros are indeed solid trains - Siemens have proven that they can be relied on to provide a solid product… nothing flash; but does the job well.

 

[meld3]

Based on the trains ability to work "straight out of the box" - it has to be Hornby.

 

[Bertone]

Based on the trains ability to work "straight out of the box" - it has to be Hornby.

 

[fgwrich]

Based on the trains ability to work "straight out of the box" - it has to be Hornby.

Have you bought a Hornby product lately? More Quality Control issues than a train built by Bombardier in Derby!

(Easy to draw some comparisons here, having been one of many to send their models back to the manufacturer to get them fixed...)

 

[Sorcerer]

So the verdict so far seems to be that Siemens have been a great manufacturer by half the votes cast with Stadler coming in second place. I must admit, I am quite pleased to see such praises for Stadler because I find their stock to have a certain charm to them. To no surprise, CAF has trailed in at dead last with just one vote with Hitachi having just four, which isn't the least bit surprising given some design flaws. With all that said and done, is there any benefit that operators get from still ordering from these manufacturers? I imagine price play a big part as well as the fact you can get existing products off the shelf (ie. the Class 800-810 units being largely similar and therefore an already established design) but is there any more to gain from ordering from these manufacturers compared to higher quality products from Siemens and Stadler?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, they are cheaper.

 

[43096]

So the verdict so far seems to be that Siemens have been a great manufacturer by half the votes cast with Stadler coming in second place. I must admit, I am quite pleased to see such praises for Stadler because I find their stock to have a certain charm to them. To no surprise, CAF has trailed in at dead last with just one vote with Hitachi having just four, which isn't the least bit surprising given some design flaws. With all that said and done, is there any benefit that operators get from still ordering from these manufacturers? I imagine price play a big part as well as the fact you can get existing products off the shelf (ie. the Class 800-810 units being largely similar and therefore an already established design) but is there any more to gain from ordering from these manufacturers compared to higher quality products from Siemens and Stadler?

The surprise is that anyone has voted for CAF, Hitachi or Alstom. Presumably they must work for them.

 

[Domh245]

I'm not so sure that Hitachi are cheaper, but they are the only established option for high speed diesel(/Independent power)