Better Buses for Strathclyde

[gunn13]

Not sure if this is something that has been posted about already; I couldn't find anything via the search. Apologies if already discussed elsewhere.

There has been a growing campaign for "re-regulation" of the buses in the Greater Glasgow / legacy-Strathclyde area and it has gained a bit of traction recently. Wondering what people think about this?
It's something I'm inclined to think would be the right direction for public transport in Glasgow for the long term.

The Better Buses for Strathclyde campaign has been inspired by the various English campaigns, and the recent launch of Greater Manchester's Bee Network. It is supported by a variety of public and community organisations and spearheaded by Get Glasgow Moving who you might already be familiar with.

There is an upcoming public event being hosted in the Glasgow City Chambers next week to mark the launch of a new Centre for Cities report - Miles Better: Improving Public Transport in the Glasgow City Region. This report has been commissioned by the Better Buses campaign. It looks like it will be pretty interesting for anyone who cares about public transport in Glasgow, so definitely worth registering.

There is also a petition hosted at: https://www.megaphone.org.uk/petitions/take-strathclyde-s-buses-back-into-public-control

As an aside, It's also nice to see reuse of some of the old Strathclyde corporate identity in the campaign visual design.

 

[johncrossley]

Scotland has had the power to regulate buses for over 20 years now so campaigns such as this shouldn't be necessary.

 

[markymark2000]

The Better Buses for Strathclyde campaign has been inspired by the various English campaigns, and the recent launch of Greater Manchester's Bee Network. It is supported by a variety of public and community organisations and spearheaded by Get Glasgow Moving who you might already be familiar with.

Inspired by? It's the same people. It's a group called We Own It. Same type of people as those who campaign for Just Stop Oil. No facts allowed sort of place. Only care about bootlicking certain politicians to get their way and not bothered about what is best for the public.

 

[GusB]

Inspired by? It's the same people. It's a group called We Own It. Same type of people as those who campaign for Just Stop Oil. No facts allowed sort of place. Only care about bootlicking certain politicians to get their way and not bothered about what is best for the public.

Do you actually have evidence to back up these claims?

 

[markymark2000]

Do you actually have evidence to back up these claims?

Myself and a number of others partook in a number of discussions on Twitter with 'BetterBusesGM' and 'WeOwnIt' during their campaign for public ownership of buses in Manchester.

Scroll down on the Get Glasgow Moving page (who are the ones orchestrating this just using multiple different names to try and hide behind who they really are), you see that they are affiliated with WeOwnIt[1]

Ellie Harrison who is one of the leading members of the Get Glasgow Moving 'committee' [2] has got many many posts on Social Media about her 'collaboration' and 'her friends' at WeOwnIt and the pair both share a lot of eachothers work showing that there is strong links between Ellie Harrison and the We Own It group.

Other things that's worth noting, Get Glasgow Moving encouraged littering the city with stickers to support their campaign [3]. There is also a photo on the linked page showing that they have stuck these to lampposts. Making the city look tatty all in aid of supporting public services. Wanting more public services but then giving streetscene teams more work to do getting all of the stickers off lampposts. Also worth noting is that both firms have gotten funding for the main campaigner via grants from the Foundation for Integrated Transport.

[1]

Get Glasgow Moving

Get Glasgow Moving is a people-led public transport campaign demanding better public transport for everyone in the Greater Glasgow region.

www.getglasgowmoving.org

[2]

Public Meeting to launch campaign - Get Glasgow Moving

The Get Glasgow Moving campaign was launched with a packed public meeting at Renfield St. Stephen's on 15 September 2016.

www.getglasgowmoving.org

Ellie Harrison, founder and coordinator of the Bring Back British Rail campaign and co-founder of Get Glasgow Moving

[3]

Support our Fair Fares Now campaign this summer - Get Glasgow Moving

Help us get more signatures on our Fair Fares Now petition before we submit it to SPT at our Passenger Rally on Friday 30 September, 9am.

www.getglasgowmoving.org

If you can’t make the events, but would like some stickers to distribute in your local area, you can also order them online.

[4]

We’re seeking a Public Transport Campaigner to join our team - Get Glasgow Moving

In spring 2019, after receiving a grant from the Foundation for Integrated Transport to help us build the campaign, we began recruiting for a full-time campaigner.

www.getglasgowmoving.org

We have been awarded funding from the Foundation for Integrated Transport to recruit a full-time campaigner to take our campaign to the next level.

We Own It – ..... and who after receiving a similar grant from the Foundation for Integrated Transport, recruited the campaigner Pascale Robinson and have built the brilliant Better Buses for Greater Manchester campaign.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not sure if this is something that has been posted about already; I couldn't find anything via the search. Apologies if already discussed elsewhere.

There has been a growing campaign for "re-regulation" of the buses in the Greater Glasgow / legacy-Strathclyde area and it has gained a bit of traction recently. Wondering what people think about this?
It's something I'm inclined to think would be the right direction for public transport in Glasgow for the long term.

The Better Buses for Strathclyde campaign has been inspired by the various English campaigns, and the recent launch of Greater Manchester's Bee Network. It is supported by a variety of public and community organisations and spearheaded by Get Glasgow Moving who you might already be familiar with.

There is an upcoming public event being hosted in the Glasgow City Chambers next week to mark the launch of a new Centre for Cities report - Miles Better: Improving Public Transport in the Glasgow City Region. This report has been commissioned by the Better Buses campaign. It looks like it will be pretty interesting for anyone who cares about public transport in Glasgow, so definitely worth registering.

There is also a petition hosted at: https://www.megaphone.org.uk/petitions/take-strathclyde-s-buses-back-into-public-control

As an aside, It's also nice to see reuse of some of the old Strathclyde corporate identity in the campaign visual design.

You have to laugh. Decades of car centric planning, building of major motorways into the centre of Glasgow, preponderance of on street parking, and the problem is who owns the buses...

 

[markymark2000]

You have to laugh. Decades of car centric planning, building of major motorways into the centre of Glasgow, preponderance of on street parking, and the problem is who owns the buses...

Which is even more funny when you look at the state of SPT with their shambles of a tendered bus network (full of tendered buses following commercial ones or buses going random ways at different times of the day for no logical reason. SPT not partaking in any meaningful multi modal or multi operator scheme. A Subway which can't even handle being open on a Sunday. Bus station which generally are run down, Buchannan Bus Station, the Victoria Coach Station of Scotland and yet it's extremely run down and quite cold at times because it's mostly a canopy, and not a building. Glasgow council still refusing bus lanes and bus priority in many areas. And yet, these are the organisations who these campaigners want to run their buses? The same ones who have got enough blood on their hands for the ongoing death of the bus network.

 

[jagardner1984]

SPT are the main problem here I would say. You’d have thought the operators would jump in with multi operator, multi modal ticketing. The cost of using a mixture of rail, subway and a couple of bus operators on a walk up ticket is completely absurd, and for many driving into the city centre will still be cheaper. That is an insane position to be in in 2023. Given the bee network is effectively a tighter regulated, cross ticketed system with operators contracted to deliver routes under a brand, one might argue if SPT were to function correctly, then a large organisational structure change shouldn’t be required. It’s a mark of their failure IMHO.

As a simple example - contactless on Subway / Rail and then a contactless cap across all operators, and an equivalent of the hopper fare. Given London’s PAYG cap is £5.25 daily or £24.70 weekly, and Glasgow’s system is demonstrably weaker, those would seem the upper limits of what is acceptable.

For a smaller zone on a single operator, with weaker coverage and poorer timings, the daily ticket is £5.40/£26.70. That is what gives campaigns like this oxygen. Sensible pricing would be a great first step.

 

[Megafuss]

You have to laugh. Decades of car centric planning, building of major motorways into the centre of Glasgow, preponderance of on street parking, and the problem is who owns the buses...

If all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail

 

[markymark2000]

SPT are the main problem here I would say. You’d have thought the operators would jump in with multi operator, multi modal ticketing. The cost of using a mixture of rail, subway and a couple of bus operators on a walk up ticket is completely absurd, and for many driving into the city centre will still be cheaper. That is an insane position to be in in 2023. Given the bee network is effectively a tighter regulated, cross ticketed system with operators contracted to deliver routes under a brand, one might argue if SPT were to function correctly, then a large organisational structure change shouldn’t be required. It’s a mark of their failure IMHO.

As a simple example - contactless on Subway / Rail and then a contactless cap across all operators, and an equivalent of the hopper fare. Given London’s PAYG cap is £5.25 daily or £24.70 weekly, and Glasgow’s system is demonstrably weaker, those would seem the upper limits of what is acceptable.

For a smaller zone on a single operator, with weaker coverage and poorer timings, the daily ticket is £5.40/£26.70. That is what gives campaigns like this oxygen. Sensible pricing would be a great first step.

Many operators would jump at this sort of scheme however even where such a ticket exists, these campaigns ignore it because it doesn't fit their ideology. They preached all the same thing in Manchester where System One existed but they refused to acknowledge it and they refused to acknowledge that actually most of the issues with the high cost of the ticket for some elements is/was down to the public authority demanding a high price.

Simply put, it's about shouting the right things, doesn't matter what the facts are (such as it already exists) but by shouting what is popular, you gain support.

It's worth stating that SPT does have multi modal tickets with the Zonecard however it's only for weekly and longer tickets, it is split into 70+ zones. 70 ZONES! And SPT set the prices for it and it's a bit pricey compared to other PTE areas. Given some of the zones don't even have a train station so the train aspect and the subway only works for Glasgow, the value isn't very good.

 

[Stan Drews]

Many operators would jump at this sort of scheme however even where such a ticket exists, these campaigns ignore it because it doesn't fit their ideology. They preached all the same thing in Manchester where System One existed but they refused to acknowledge it and they refused to acknowledge that actually most of the issues with the high cost of the ticket for some elements is/was down to the public authority demanding a high price.

Simply put, it's about shouting the right things, doesn't matter what the facts are (such as it already exists) but by shouting what is popular, you gain support.

It's worth stating that SPT does have multi modal tickets with the Zonecard however it's only for weekly and longer tickets, it is split into 70+ zones. 70 ZONES! And SPT set the prices for it and it's a bit pricey compared to other PTE areas. Given some of the zones don't even have a train station so the train aspect and the subway only works for Glasgow, the value isn't very good.

SPT do not set the prices for the Zonecard. That has to be agreed by a forum that involves all the main operators.
The Zonecard is due to be relaunched shortly, which will at least bring it into the 21st century!

 

[markymark2000]

SPT do not set the prices for the Zonecard. That has to be agreed by a forum that involves all the main operators.
The Zonecard is due to be relaunched shortly, which will at least bring it into the 21st century!

Really? I thought it was set mostly SPT?

Any more info on the relaunch and what's going to change or just know that it's going to be relaunched?

 

[Stan Drews]

Really? I thought it was set mostly SPT?

Any more info on the relaunch and what's going to change or just know that it's going to be relaunched?

There is some information in this agenda item regarding the contract award for the provision of smart Zonecard services.

https://www.spt.co.uk/media/vqoh03ai/p240622_agenda14.pdf

Contract for the provision of smart ZoneCard services
Date of meeting 24 June 2022 Date of report 14 June 2022 Report by Director of Finance & Corporate Support
1. Object of report
To recommend the Partnership approve the award of a contract for the development and delivery of smart ZoneCard services to Unicard Ltd.
2. Background
In relation to multi-modal and multi-operator travel, the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001 requires that an authority such as SPT “shall from time to time determine what ticketing arrangements should be made available for their area” and “whether the required ticketing arrangements are being made available”.
Where required to meet the needs of the travelling public, the authority should then seek to make a “ticketing arrangement”, which is a voluntary agreement, with relevant operators. Should it not prove possible to make such an arrangement, the authority may enforce a ticketing scheme, for which participation is mandatory. However, this mandatory approach remains legally untested.
SPT previously determined a requirement for a multi-modal, multi-operator ticket which led to the ZoneCard Ticketing Arrangement being established. ZoneCard is a commercial ticketing arrangement which operators participate in voluntarily. SPT administers the ticketing arrangement but decisions about the arrangement are made by the participating operators in collaboration with SPT.
ZoneCard is a multi-operator, multi-modal transport ticket covering bus, rail, Subway and ferry. ZoneCard tickets can be purchased with validity from one week up to one year. The ZoneCard ticketing arrangement has been in existence for around 30 years and most details of the arrangement have remained largely unchanged in that time. As a result, the ticket does not reflect the current day need for flexible ticketing.
ZoneCard is governed through a Forum of the main operators (including a representative of smaller operators). This collaborative and collegiate approach to planning and decision making has proved an effective way to deliver an integrated multi-modal ticket highly valued by customers throughout the Strathclyde area.
More than 385,000 weeks of ZoneCard tickets were sold during 2019-20 with value exceeding £10 million. ZoneCard continues to play an essential role in public transport provision for the Strathclyde area however demand has been in steady decline, having once exceeded 650,000 weeks sold.
Agenda Item 14
Partnership June 2022 – Zonecard Page 1 of 4

SPT and the ZoneCard participating operators recognise that ZoneCard in its existing format no longer meets the needs of the travelling public.
A series of workstreams are being progressed to comprehensively modernise the ZoneCard offering with the aim of offering a modern, smart, flexible, convenient multi-operator multi- modal ticket. Customers will be able to access bus, rail and Subway travel using one ticket on one smartcard.
A modernised ZoneCard will also support public transport operators by enabling quicker, more transparent and more robust allocation of ZoneCard ticket revenue compared to existing arrangements.
3. Outline of proposals
SPT on behalf of the participating operators has carried out a tender exercise to procure a supplier of an ITSO smart platform for the modernised ZoneCard ticketing arrangement. The core purpose of this tender was to appoint an established supplier with a proven ITSO platform to deliver the following:
• Development, testing and deployment of a range of ITSO ticket products (including but not limited to season tickets and carnets) to be accepted on multiple modes and by multiple operators.
• Ongoing services to maintain the availability of the ITSO ticket products.
• Liaison with operators and their suppliers through the development, testing and
deployment stages.
• Ticket validity to be based on a geographic Zonal structure (estimated seven zones in total).
• Online retail and fulfilment service (including Remote Ticket Download) for the above range of ZoneCard ITSO products.
• Retail at operators’ existing physical POSTs (Point of Service Terminals such as ticket vending machines).
• Mobile app for operator ticket inspection and validation.
• Comprehensive ITSO/HOPS (Host Operator Processing Service) as Product
Owner and connecting to 3rd party services as required.
• Reporting from HOPS.
The technical specification was developed by a Tender Team including representation from the rail and bus industries and SPT, along with specialist technical consultancy support.
At the conclusion of the procurement exercise, three compliant bids were taken forward for detailed assessment. The assessment was on a 30%/70% technical/commercial basis.
The three bidders were:
• Ecebs Ltd;
• Nevis Technologies Ltd; and
Partnership June 2022 – Zonecard Page 2 of 4

• Unicard Ltd.
The technical, commercial and overall combined scores are detailed in the table below and the overall combined score illustrates the most advantageous tenderer as being Unicard Ltd.
Commercial Score
Technical score
Tender Value
Score
Combined Technical and Commercial Score
Rank
Ecebs Nevis Unicard
22.51 £310,659 22.51 £310,659 30 £283,510
63.88 63.88 70
86.63 2 86.63 2 100 1
The recommended contract is for an initial four-year period at a cost of £283,510 with an option for a 24-month extension.
4. Conclusion
The Most Economically Advantageous Tender is that submitted by Unicard Ltd.
5. Partnership action
It is recommended that the Committee approve the award of the contract for provision of smart ZoneCard services to Unicard Ltd at an estimated cost of £283,510.
6. Consequences
Policy consequences
Legal consequences Financial consequences
Personnel consequences Equalities consequences Risk consequences
Climate change, adaption and carbon consequences
Provision of improved integrated ticketing strongly supports SPT’s strategic objectives.
None identified.
The contract cost is estimated at £283,510 over four years. Agreement in principle has been reached by the ZoneCard Forum of operators to cover the implementation costs. Alternative funding sources will also be explored.
None identified. None identified. None identified.
Convenient and flexible ticketing will support the use of public transport as a lower carbon alternative to travel by car.

 

[markymark2000]

So shrink down the zones to 7 (not sure why they couldn't do that now) and put tickets onto a smartcard. I hope that they can get it all sorted quickly. Surprised it took them till last year to realise that the system wasn't fit for purpose. I just don't see why some of the things can't be done now, like the zones, why kick it down the road? Hoping people forget it was ever considered?

 

[GusB]

The topic of the thread is "Better Buses for Strathclyde", so let's stick to discussing that particular campaign. It's not a thread for rants about SPT, nor is it a ticketing discussion.

Please also remember to be respectful when posting.

 

[sannox]

Every campaign about this always fails to answer 'where is the money coming from to fund this'? Councils are cash strapped (look at some of Glasgow's and other areas funding cuts in recent years). Do they have the money required to run this? Especially as reduction in fares (and thus likely farebox income) is a key message.

I could get behind plans that spell these things out - here is what we think should happen, here's how it's funded in detail - but invariably this is missing and it's just 'the buses are crap and in London and Edinburgh they are 50p cheaper'.

 

[EMU303]

I think Greater Manchester are looking for a 30% increase in passengers? but if they don’t manage to achieve that then it’s the public purse that takes the hit.

Bus operators were initially reluctant to support franchising outside London but post covid they’ve seen passenger numbers decline, inflation hit their costs and a shortage of drivers. So now they’re probably happy with a fixed revenue and for the public purse to take the revenue risk. It’s a gamble for sure and perhaps cities like Glasgow will adopt a “wait and see” attitude for fear of getting their fingers burnt.

No point in comparing Glasgow with London or even Edinburgh. The Scottish capital doesn’t have a motorway running through the middle of it, hasn’t suffered the same population decline close to the city centre as Glasgow and of course Glasgow has an “metro” type rail system, the largest in the UK outside of London. Plus a handy Subway for city centre to west end journeys.

It will certainly be interesting to see how it evolves in Manchester.

A firm “no” from the owners of McGills then ….

Glasgow bus franchising advocacy draws furious McGill's response - routeone

A report that advocates bus franchising in Glasgow has draw an incandescent response from McGill's Bus Group co-owner Sandy Easdale.

www.route-one.net