Blank Reservation Coupons

[Crossover]

After a quick opinion of thoughts on this - are reservations valid if every seat on the train has a reservation coupon attached to it but with each one blank?

On a GC service at the moment that has such a case - I boarded and the end of the coach where my booked seat was looked fairly busy so decided to sit elsewhere (noticing all the seats had blank reservations on them)

It appears that some of these seats are reserved as someone got on with a reservation for where I have sat. As it happens, they are not too concerned, but it just got me wondering if the reservations are effectively invalid?

 

[cuccir]

Are blank reservations on all, or some of the seats? If only on some, I'd take this as an indication that the seats are reserved. This is probably enough to ensure that reservations are valid.

There was a long thread on this a few months ago, in which opinions differed significantly. My general view is that where reservations are not present on board, they should not be seen as honored. Publicly available regulations aren't clear on this, but I think the following are key:

If reservations aren't indicated and the seats aren't available, the TOC has failed to honour the reservation as stated in the NRCOC. Accordingly:

If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid.

Of course, reservations are usually free. Despite this, most TOCs offer some sort of % refund, as a courtesy, or will seek to seat passengers in first class if they make a fuss on board.

Bylaw 19 is also important here:

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

I think this makes it quite clear that it is only an offence to occupy a reserved seat if a notice indicates that it is reserved.

While failure to honour the reservation is a problem, it is between the reservation holder and the TOC, and the reservation holder should be compensated appropriately. However, anyone unknowingly sitting in an unmarked reserved seat should not be affected by this: they are fully entitled to do so and are breaking neither the bylaws nor the NRCOC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Last time I was on a Grand Central service, well, the last few times actually, the slips had "Reserved for all or part of the journey" printed on them, although there were no specific details of any reservations (and many were never used). In these cases I believe they are reserved and you would have to vacate them when requested.

 

[IanD]

I put my daughter on a Grand Central service last Sunday at Bradford Interchange and every seat had a reservation cards that had nothing printed on them (including my daughter's reserved seat).

This is pointless and makes it very difficult to swap seats if you don't like the one you've been allocated or to even find a seat that you're not going to be turfed out of by some stickler for the rules.

 

[snail]

Virgin do this sometimes when the electronic displays are faulty. I was on a Voyager the other day where only half the displays in Coach D were working. A number of the seats with blank displays had a red 'This seat is reserved' card but nothing indicating from which station.

 

[wintonian]

Doesn't it still satisfy the requirement that the seat is marked as reserved, in this case by a label?

I don't know of any requirement to actually print anything on them.

 

[IanD]

Doesn't it still satisfy the requirement that the seat is marked as reserved, in this case by a label?

I don't know of any requirement to actually print anything on them.

I can't believe that every seat in standard was reserved yet every seat in standard had a label.

 

[wintonian]

I can't believe that every seat in standard was reserved yet every seat in standard had a label.

I have seen trains where the only unreserved seats were in the unreserved coach.

 

[yorkie]

I have seen trains where the only unreserved seats were in the unreserved coach.

Grand Central do not have an unreserved coach, as far as I know. In the case experienced by the OP, every seat was marked with an unknown, unspecified "reservation".

Perhaps that means GC are wishing to indicate that they do not want to receive any ORCATS revenue for passengers who do not specify a particular service? Perhaps someone can contact GC, with a copy to ATOC and East Coast, to find out?

 

[londonbridge]

Reservations were in a mess on the train coming back from the match today. Got the 15.29 instead of the usual 17.29 as it was 12.45 k/o, half the tickets were blank and the reservations for coach C had apparently been transferred to E.

 

[leyscjd]

On the 1320 Kings Cross-Sunderland yesterday I had a reservation for coach C but chose to sit in the declassified coach A, with no reservations.

When the guard checked my ticket she pointed out that I was not sitting in my reserved seat, and said I MUST sit in my allocated seat in future. (This was despite only 7 other people being present in the carriage!)

Hardly fantastic customer service and didn't appreciate being spoken to like a naughty schoolboy.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Was it an Advance ticket? (where part of the contract you agreed to was to sit in the reserved seat, thus making you 'a naughty little school boy'). Or was it a walk up ticket with an additional reservation? (which probably makes you 'a naughty little school boy' if coach C was full apart from your reserved seat which no-one used because it was reserved). Did you make the Guard aware of the change of seat or did she notice it first?

 

[yorkie]

When the guard checked my ticket she pointed out that I was not sitting in my reserved seat, and said I MUST sit in my allocated seat in future. (This was despite only 7 other people being present in the carriage!)

Hardly fantastic customer service and didn't appreciate being spoken to like a naughty schoolboy.

The best thing to do is avoid Grand Central in that case, because you can book a seat of your choice on East Coast, by using the East Coast website seat selector.

It's a bit naughty of Grand Central to deny you the ability to choose a seat, and then force you to sit in a randomly allocated seat, but if that's the way they want it, you can vote with your custom.

Another thing you can do, is make sure you complete a Passenger Focus survey.

It's a shame, because overall I support many of the principles of Grand Central, but some of the things they do make me want to take my custom elsewhere - which I can very easily do.

 

[leyscjd]

It was an advance ticket and by choosing to sit elsewhere I did violate the contract between GC & myself.

But common sense dictates that on a quiet train, there was no need for the guard to draw attention to my 'misbehaviour'.

As Yorkie points out, the best response is to vote with my feet. Since Arriva acquired GC, they've gone rapidly downhill.

 

[IanD]

It was an advance ticket and by choosing to sit elsewhere I did violate the contract between GC & myself.

But common sense dictates that on a quiet train, there was no need for the guard to draw attention to my 'misbehaviour'.

As Yorkie points out, the best response is to vote with my feet. Since Arriva acquired GC, they've gone rapidly downhill.

Just like on a quiet motorway there's no need for anyone to draw attention to someone driving down the middle lane at 120mph. It's quiet so the rules don't apply.

 

[leyscjd]

Driving 120mph down a motorway and sitting in a mk3 with 6 other passengers is hardly a fair comparison in terms of the consequences of breaking rules, is it?

 

[IanD]

Why not? People get stopped speeing and they go on about how the police should be spending their time catching "real" criminals. A Grand Central employee tries enforcing the rules applicable to the terms and conditions you agreed to and you imply they must have something better to do. In fact, they didn't enforce the rules, just reminded you of them.

 

[MikeWh]

I'll tell you one difference. It is NEVER ok to do 120mph in any lane on a motorway regardless of how quiet the road is. However, if some problem prevents the railway putting out reservation coupons ....

 

[Crossover]

I put my daughter on a Grand Central service last Sunday at Bradford Interchange and every seat had a reservation cards that had nothing printed on them (including my daughter's reserved seat).

This is pointless and makes it very difficult to swap seats if you don't like the one you've been allocated or to even find a seat that you're not going to be turfed out of by some stickler for the rules.

Thanks for all the replies

I've quoted the above as this seemed to be the case on my service.

I boarded the rear of the middle coach (local door and the furthest back the doors were open) and walked all the way from there (buffet) to the front coach where my reserved seat was and all the seats appeared to have tickets on. I had watched it arriving and thought "it seems well reserved this morning" but certainly all the tickets I looked at were blank...very useful!

 

[tannedfrog]

Just like on a quiet motorway there's no need for anyone to draw attention to someone driving down the middle lane at 120mph. It's quiet so the rules don't apply.

I love the analogies on this site!!!