Blanket Speed Restrictions - Single Point of Failure - significant risks

[Camberman]

The RAIB has published this today:

Overspeeds in blanket speed restrictions, south Wales, 27 January 2025

For me as a retired H&S Manager in the construction sector to read this from the following in the report as it is generally recognised in my industry that single points of failure must be avoided due to the significant risks involved.

Unlike other types of emergency and temporary speed restrictions, there were no warnings, reminders or visual cues available to the train drivers involved relating to these BSRs, other than the information in the late notice case. This meant that drivers’ memory was a potential single point of failure for compliance with a safety-related speed restriction.

 

[bengley]

Blanket speed restrictions are a shambles. Too easy to miss and badly published particularly for drivers who don't have access to a late notice case.

 

[Purple Train]

Blanket speed restrictions are a shambles. Too easy to miss and badly published particularly for drivers who don't have access to a late notice case.

Certainly to a layman their implementation is nothing short of shocking, considering the safety culture that rightly exists on today's railway.

 

[paulmch]

The overall notices system is in complete disarray - the weekly and late notices are so full of outdated, irrelevant or entirely incorrect information that they're really not worth the paper they're written on. It's surprising that incidents like this don't happen more often!

 

[Camberman]

Personally, I would hate to imagine an accident causing loss of life due to this single point of failure.....

If this were to happen I feel confident that corporate manslaughter charges would arise (not that charges would in any way console relatives of the deceased).

Although the rail industry is in many ways in the vanguard of safety, the methodology and procedures for implementing blanket speed restrictions and ensuring compliance with them seem to me to be stuck in the mid 20th century and totally not fit for purpose.

 

[Snow1964]

3. Cause of the incidents​

High winds can pose risks to the safe operation of trains, including a risk of trains overturning

I am intrigued by the idea of wind overturning a modern train, yes it happens on empty (and relatively light) high sided road truck trailers, but can't find any reference to a train being blown over in recent years (it did happen in 19th century with some lightweight wooden coaches on very windy embankments and viaducts).

As most modern UK vehicles are 30t plus, and generally have heavy equipment (compressors, batteries, a/c evaporators etc) slung low down, how strong does wind need to be to topple a train.

And what is logic behind 50mph is safe not to be overturned, but higher speed isn't. Feels like the fear of overturning part is a red herring.

 

[800001]

I am intrigued by the idea of wind overturning a modern train, yes it happens on empty (and relatively light) high sided road truck trailers, but can't find any reference to a train being blown over in recent years (it did happen in 19th century with some lightweight wooden coaches on very windy embankments and viaducts).

As most modern UK vehicles are 30t plus, and generally have heavy equipment (compressors, batteries, a/c evaporators etc) slung low down, how strong does wind need to be to topple a train.

And what is logic behind 50mph is safe not to be overturned, but higher speed isn't. Feels like the fear of overturning part is a red herring.

50mph speed restriction mainly is to do with debris on the line, trees etc.
but also in areas or OHL, could be items caught on them or OHL damaged.

 

[Camberman]

I am intrigued by the idea of wind overturning a modern train, yes it happens on empty (and relatively light) high sided road truck trailers, but can't find any reference to a train being blown over in recent years (it did happen in 19th century with some lightweight wooden coaches on very windy embankments and viaducts).

As most modern UK vehicles are 30t plus, and generally have heavy equipment (compressors, batteries, a/c evaporators etc) slung low down, how strong does wind need to be to topple a train.

And what is logic behind 50mph is safe not to be overturned, but higher speed isn't. Feels like the fear of overturning part is a red herring.

I believe heavy rain can also cause Blanket Speed Restrictions to be put in place due to the risk of landslips causing embankments to slip onto the line.

 

[Falcon1200]

It should be remembered that while other speed restrictions, Temporary (TSR) and Emergency (ESR) are imposed for definite, known and specific issues, blanket speed restrictions are a precautionary measure imposed in case something happens, not because something has happened. Having said that, the process clearly does need improvement.

 

[Horizon22]

There's another section that is also concerning

Later in the day, not considering the weather conditions to be too severe, the driver contacted the Severn Tunnel signaller to confirm the speed restriction. As none of the signallers were aware of the BSR, the driver was incorrectly advised that the restriction was not in place, which led them to drive to the normally permitted speed.

If even the signallers don't know, then it really is a shambles and what hope is there of getting it right.

BSRs do have their place where there is a widespread weather concern and it is simply not feasible to get physical markers down, but the communications of their implementation and withdrawal needs to be much better. It doesn't seem that hard to get right, but just needs more structure. In some cases, poor handovers (e.g. between signallers) will be to blame.

I am sure technology can easily do this (emails, berth-triggered messaging, information on the cab driver interface on modern stock) and a "belt and braces" approach of also having staff as required at major hubs to hand something over to drivers would suffice.

I am intrigued by the idea of wind overturning a modern train, yes it happens on empty (and relatively light) high sided road truck trailers, but can't find any reference to a train being blown over in recent years (it did happen in 19th century with some lightweight wooden coaches on very windy embankments and viaducts).

More overturning through derailing due to hitting a tree / landslip or tracks washed away when rain is also a component.

 

[trundlewagon]

If even the signallers don't know, then it really is a shambles and what hope is there of getting it right.

Always wondered why more signallers don't use the berth-triggered broadcasts when it comes to BSRs but maybe that's why

 

[800001]

Certainly eastern region issue these via gsmr berth triggered messages, or do on occasions

 

[Snow1964]

More overturning through derailing due to hitting a tree / landslip or tracks washed away when rain is also a component.

The what I presumed, hitting debris is the risk.

But the report doesn't say debris, it is worded as the wind itself. Possibly it is just poor wording, but would have thought these sort of reports should get checked for accuracy.

It is ironic that in a report highlighting poor communication, wrong words are used.

 

[Tilting007]

I believe heavy rain can also cause Blanket Speed Restrictions to be put in place due to the risk of landslips causing embankments to slip onto the line.

This is convective rain and wouldn’t be published in late notice cases as it can be applied and removed quickly with the use of a berth triggered broadcast.

 

[Elecman]

I am intrigued by the idea of wind overturning a modern train, yes it happens on empty (and relatively light) high sided road truck trailers, but can't find any reference to a train being blown over in recent years (it did happen in 19th century with some lightweight wooden coaches on very windy embankments and viaducts).

As most modern UK vehicles are 30t plus, and generally have heavy equipment (compressors, batteries, a/c evaporators etc) slung low down, how strong does wind need to be to topple a train.

And what is logic behind 50mph is safe not to be overturned, but higher speed isn't. Feels like the fear of overturning part is a red herring.

Containers have been blown off trains on Shap in the non too distant past

 

[Nym]

Containers have been blown off trains on Shap in the non too distant past

Were the twistlocks actually secured in that instance?

 

[edwin_m]

Were the twistlocks actually secured in that instance?

No. The wagons were equipped with specially designed spigots which would hook and hold the container if it started overturning, which would always be preceded by a sideways slide. Unfortunately the wagon designers mounted these spigots on pivots, which defeated the design.

 

[notverydeep]

Containers have been blown off trains on Shap in the non too distant past

Details of the incident in 2015 can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-speeds for,publish our reports and bulletins. As far as I can recall (and tell from a quick skim re-read) no Blanket Speed Restriction was in operation at the time.

and the full report here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...2e87dba952/R192015_151207_Scout_Green_DSN.pdf

From the summary:

An empty 30 foot container was blown off an FEA(B) wagon that formed part of train 4S83 (the 23:54 hrs service from Basford Hall to Coatbridge). The train was travelling at around 75 mph (120 km/h) on the down main line in the vicinity of Scout Green, Cumbria, around 2.5 miles south of Shap Summit. The container passed over the adjacent up main line and came to rest at the bottom of the up side embankment. There was no damage to train 4S83, any other train, the overhead line equipment or the track. Trees on the embankment and a boundary wall at its foot were knocked over.

The incident took place at a time of high cross winds. Although it did not result in injuries, the potential for more serious consequences is evident.

 

[InkyScrolls]

GSM-R is a very versatile piece of equipment - it's a real shame it isn't used to its full ability. Berth triggered broadcasts would be an excellent way to provide information on BSRs, but it never seems to happen (in my experience).

 

[LAX54]

Always wondered why more signallers don't use the berth-triggered broadcasts when it comes to BSRs but maybe that's why

When I was working, the Signallers when advised by Control of a BSR, used to do a berth triggered GSMR broadcast. (GEML)

 

[trundlewagon]

When I was working, the Signallers when advised by Control of a BSR, used to do a berth triggered GSMR broadcast. (GEML)

I find it's very hit and miss and even between different workstations of the same signalling centre.

 

[stuu]

I am intrigued by the idea of wind overturning a modern train, yes it happens on empty (and relatively light) high sided road truck trailers, but can't find any reference to a train being blown over in recent years (it did happen in 19th century with some lightweight wooden coaches on very windy embankments and viaducts).

As most modern UK vehicles are 30t plus, and generally have heavy equipment (compressors, batteries, a/c evaporators etc) slung low down, how strong does wind need to be to topple a train.

And what is logic behind 50mph is safe not to be overturned, but higher speed isn't. Feels like the fear of overturning part is a red herring.

A train in Switzerland was blown over a few years ago, although that was a metre gauge one a bit more like a tram so maybe had a higher centre of gravity as lots of equipment appears to be on the roof. So it is possible but pretty unlikely

 

[Tilting007]

Details of the incident in 2015 can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/container-blown-off-a-freight-train-near-scout-green-cumbria#:~:text=The forecast wind-speeds for,publish our reports and bulletins. As far as I can recall (and tell from a quick skim re-read) no Blanket Speed Restriction was in operation at the time.

and the full report here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...2e87dba952/R192015_151207_Scout_Green_DSN.pdf

From the summary:

Happened in Shap and Cheddington in High Winds in (I think) 2008.

 

[Kipperthecat]

The problem with berth triggered GSM-R is that the train has to running on green signals far enough back for the driver to listen to the message and take the appropriate action. Therefore, at some locations it would not be appropriate to perform a broadcast.

In addition to this, there is no requirement for the driver to acknowledge the message has been received and understood for a BSR, something which is not highlighted in the report. Again a single point of failure !

 

[LAX54]

I find it's very hit and miss and even between different workstations of the same signalling centre.

Yes have to agree, when I worked it was very 'signaller orientated', some also liked to give each driver a call, although that was mainly in the less busy parts of the centre, think some didnt trust the system to work correctly either !
By the time I left, most BSR's were pre-planned and wired out to all the TOC/FOC depots so that they clould see when signing on, ended up quiite rare needing drivers to be advised of a sudden BSR.