Bolton to Bache

[kendun]

Dear all,

I am a newbie after some advice/ help/ suggestions. I will be commuting from Bolton to Bache in a couple of weeks and I have struggled to understand why I some trains are allowed in the return ticket and some aren't ? If anyone could explain the reasons and also if there is a way around this, it would be helpful.

I could start beteen 8.30 and 9 in Bache and finish around 4.30 onwards. On the national rail site the quicker routes for eg. at 06.19 to Bache and the journey from Bache at 17:06 don't have the option for buying and these options don't appear on sites like Qjump. I was hoping to buy a season ticket from Bolton to Bache but it looks like using the trains for the quickest journey may not be possible via a season ticket

Is there a way around this? Could this be done by maybe paying a bit extra?Any advice would be really welcome

 

[yorkie]

Dear all,

I am a newbie after some advice/ help/ suggestions.

Welcome

I will be commuting from Bolton to Bache in a couple of weeks and I have struggled to understand why I some trains are allowed in the return ticket and some aren't ? If anyone could explain the reasons and also if there is a way around this, it would be helpful.

I could start beteen 8.30 and 9 in Bache and finish around 4.30 onwards. On the national rail site the quicker routes for eg. at 06.19 to Bache and the journey from Bache at 17:06 don't have the option for buying and these options don't appear on sites like Qjump. I was hoping to buy a season ticket from Bolton to Bache but it looks like using the trains for the quickest journey may not be possible via a season ticket ad:

The National Rail website doesn't sell tickets, but it will re-direct you to another site that can.

In this case, the National Rail website tells you that you need more than one ticket for this journey* (Bolton-Preston-Warrington-Chester-Bache) and if you click the Buy option enough times, it does attempt to pass the request for both tickets to a booking site (which, by default for this journey, is ATW), unfortunately it seems that the request does not work when there are 2 tickets to be purchased, so there is an error. To buy the two tickets, you would need to do 2 separate searches on a ticket booking site of your choice (avoid Thetrainline as it charges fees), once the tickets are in your basket you can buy them with one transaction.

However you will probably find Season tickets to be cheaper than individual tickets.

Is there a way around this? Could this be done by maybe paying a bit extra?Any advice would be really welcome

* The National Rail website checks an interpretation of the Routeing Guide to determine if a through ticket is valid by the route in question, in this case the National Rail website's interpretation of the RG is that it isn't. But let's check what is permitted on a Bolton - Bache ticket:

Permitted routes on a Bolton [BON] <> Bache [BAC] ticket

Now, we all know that most passengers wish to use the fastest route but unfortunately ATOC, who represent the Train Operating Companies (and do not in any way look out for the best interests of passengers) deny that this is the case, and the DfT are happy to let them get away with it.

The shortest route is always valid, that should be 40.75 miles via Hindley, Wigan, Warrington, Frodsham & Chester.

Direct trains are always valid, but there are none for this particular journey.

The Routeing Guide can be found here:

www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Bolton is a Routeing Point (RP)
Bache is associated with 2 RPs: Chester and Hooton. Both of these pass the fare check rule.

Bolton - Chester:

• CL
• CL + GM
• EH + ML
• EH + NC + CH
• GM
• GM + CH
• GM + CL
• GM + ML
• ML + GM

Bolton - Hooton:

• EH + ML
• MH + ML

Unfortunately the route you wish to take does not appear to be officially permitted, however similar (but longer) routes are permitted:

EH + NC + CH permits: Bolton - Blackburn - Preston - Warrington - Crewe - Chester - Hooton.

GM + CL permits: Bolton - Blackburn - Preston - Warrington - Runcorn - Chester - Hooton

I believe that this is an oversight. The journey is indisputably valid, except between Bolton & Preston where a guard could theoretically look up the route and tell you that you must deviate via Blackburn! A guard who works trains that operate between Manchester & Preston is a regular on this forum, I will ask him for his opinion.

Guards will accept tickets that look reasonable. If a ticket looks like it may not be reasonable, then they can consult the Routeing Guide. In this case, a route that is less reasonable is valid, but technically your route isn't valid.

 

[island]

Welcome to the forum.

A season ticket is valid for all journeys by a permitted route between the two stations. The reason the 0619 departure is not showing a return ticket as valid is because it is probably not a permitted route. Edit: Indeed it is not a permitted route as it takes you via Preston Lancs, which isn't on any permitted route.

From Bolton (BON) to Bache (BAC) the 7-day season ticket is £65.80, and for a month it's £252.70. However, we always recommend against 1-month tickets here because you can actually get a season ticket for any length of time between a month and a year, so you can precisely match your ticket to the time you need and avoid paying for weekends and holidays.

You would be able to pay extra to allow travel via Preston Lancs. A 7-day season ticket from Preston Lancs (PRE) to Bache would cost £78.40 and is valid to travel BON-PRE-BAC by map CG. But not on the route you'd want. Let me come back to you.

Edit: I can't find anything immediately obvious for this one.

 

[kendun]

Thank you very much Yorkie and Island for your detailed answers. Can I start off by saying that you guys are really really helpful and your quick replies are definitely much appreciated, especially helping out a newbie like me.

Till now I have never had to comute by train to work, could drive or walk so the whole train travel everyday is going to be totally new.

I thought that I could aim to travel by the 06:15 Bolton to Kirkby, Kirkby to LIverpool and Liverpool to Bache trains in the morning. The travel from Bache to Chester,Chester to Manchester oxford and Manchester Oxford to Bolton seems to be doable on the earlier trains in the afternoon but not the trains from Bach at 17:06 or 18:06, why's this?

Yorkie, I will have a detailed read through your links, I have tried to read and it seems quite difficult to grasp initially, but I will persevere as I probably need to comute for about a year to a year and half atleast Yorkie, Bache to Chester, Chester to Manchester and Manchester to Bolton seems/looks like a reasonable route according to me but don't understand the reasoning behind not allowing this in the evening when it's ok during the day/morning?

Island,I don't understand how not not having a monthly season ticketis better as in how can I avoid weekends as it's a monday to Friday commute, any explanations appreciated. I am a bit thick

 

[yorkie]

Island,I don't understand how not not having a monthly season ticketis better as in how can I avoid weekends as it's a monday to Friday commute, any explanations appreciated. I am a bit thick

What he means is a ticket for a literal calendar month (and no extra days) is pointless, as if you started the ticket on a Monday it would end on an odd day. What you would do is extend a monthly ticket to last a 5-week period, planning far in advance can also mean you avoid paying for a ticket to be valid when you are on annual leave, or on bank holidays.

e.g. if I wanted a ticket to start on Monday 28 November, it would expire on Tuesday 27 December if it was a monthly, now say I had Friday 30th December as annual leave, I'd extend the ticket until the 29th December.

 

[kendun]

What he means is a ticket for a literal calendar month (and no extra days) is pointless, as if you started the ticket on a Monday it would end on an odd day. What you would do is extend a monthly ticket to last a 5-week period, planning far in advance can also mean you avoid paying for a ticket to be valid when you are on annual leave, or on bank holidays.

e.g. if I wanted a ticket to start on Monday 28 November, it would expire on Tuesday 27 December if it was a monthly, now say I had Friday 30th December as annual leave, I'd extend the ticket until the 29th December.

Thank you Yorkie.

Yorkie, Bache to Chester, Chester to Manchester and Manchester to Bolton seems/looks like a reasonable route according to me and is allowed during the day but don't understand the reasoning behind not allowing this in the evening but it's ok during the day/morning?

 

[yorkie]

If it's a permitted route, then it's a permitted route at any time.

However late at night, routes that are not permitted, may seem more reasonable due to the lack of trains via permitted routes, and discretion is much more likely to be shown.

Bache - Chester - Warrington - Manchester - Bolton is permitted on maps GM + CL.

ATOC have made a mess of the Routeing Guide, and by law are required to consult the DfT and Passenger Focus when they make changes, but sadly there is an exception for "errors", so all changes that ATOC make are claimed to be mistakes/errors/whatever, Passenger Focus don't appear to have anyone who can understand the implications of such changes, the DfT just agree to anything when it comes to the Routeing Guide and some of the changes that ATOC makes - when they are desperate to avoid people using "loopholes" - has the result that reasonable routes cease to be permitted routes. I find this situation unacceptable but unless more people get their MPs on the case, it will continue to be a problem. A journey like Bache to Bolton, which is not straightforward, is going to really test the Routeing Guide. Some of the people working on the RG at ATOC are also completely incompetent, hence the delays that often occur with updating the Guide, and the ludicrous "negative easements" (both the concept and the wording of some of them).

 

[OwlMan]

Bolton - Chorley - Preston - Wigan - Warrington doubles back through Leyland, probably why it is not allowed

Peter

 

[kendun]

Thank your detailed and quick replies Yorkie, much appreciated. I'll update the thread once I start travelling in a couple of weeks.
Thank you vert much.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bolton - Chorley - Preston - Wigan - Warrington doubles back through Leyland, probably why it is not allowed

Peter

Thank you Peter.

I presume you are referring to the 0619 journey from bolton to Bache Peter, I don't understand what doubling through Leyland is

The 1706 trip from Bache to Bolton via Manchester comes up on the national rail site but is not available to buy as part of a return ticket :-x I'll definitely try this route as it seems reasonable...

 

[Chapeltom]

Doubling back is going through a station one way and coming back the other way.

 

[tony_mac]

It looks like some mistakes on the website(s).
National Rail does not allow Chester to Bolton via Earlestown - even though it is a mapped route, as yorkie said.

Eastcoast.co.uk is happy with it.

 

[Lampshade]

I believe that this is an oversight. The journey is indisputably valid, except between Bolton & Preston where a guard could theoretically look up the route and tell you that you must deviate via Blackburn! A guard who works trains that operate between Manchester & Preston is a regular on this forum, I will ask him for his opinion.

The case with most tickets is you can't double back through Leyland, which would explain going via Blackburn.

It *should* be valid via Westhoughton to Wigan and towards Warrington/Crewe from there, but that's logic.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The Routeing Guide can spit out some very odd routes. I for one wouldn't even consider that a Bolton to Chester ticket would be valid via Blackburn. In most on train situations you must remember that many on train staff have no knowledge off, let alone access to, the Routeing Guide. If a route is considered to be reasonable for a journey you will probably get away with it. Now, without looking at the Routeing Guide I would have said that Bolton - Chester would not be valid via Preston on any route. If you get someone who actually knows where Bache is I suspect you may be questioned (even if you were on a permitted route via Blackburn and Preston).

My gut feeling without checking would be that Preston would not be valid, and that travel should be Bolton - Wigan - Liverpool or Warrington -Chester, or Bolton - Manchester - Chester. I suspect others might think the same.

Generally speaking the websites which use the same booking engine as East Coast have a more accurate interpretation of the routeing guide than trainline type sites.

If on train staff do check then the answer will be provided via a Control Centre using Journey Planner, which is generally quite accurate.

As Yorkie points out, whilst most people want the quickest route, this is not always permitted - sometimes for quite good reasons. This is often the case late at night or early morning where there may be gaps in the service. Looking at Bolton - Bache for example the only time it is actually quicker via Preston appears to be at 0619, after that for the rest of the day the quickest route is via either Manchester or Wigan.

In summary, if I was presented with that ticket between Bolton and Preston my gut feeling at the time would be to say, no, it is not valid.

 

[Nym]

It is valid via Wigan, and it's the route I tend to try and take when I'm going to Chester, just to avoid the stupidly heavy loadings into Manchester of a morning. (Although most of the time for Chester I head down St Helens Road and through Lowton in a private vehicle onto the M6, M56..)

If you are going early, you can even get the early service direct into North Western, head down to Warrington and jump onto the Chester service you would have caught at Oxford Road, in practice, this is usually the same train. But ticketing is different for some reason.

 

[kendun]

Thank you everyone for your replies, it is appreciated. Something strange's happened on the website,yesterday , the 1706 return from Bache to bolton via Manchester Oxford was coming up asn option, but it seems to be appearing today :? Don't know what happened...

Nym, I need to be in Bache by 8ish and looked at the option via wigan, Warrington Bank Quay and even though it is quicker, the next train from Warrington reaches Bache after 9ish. This may be a bit of a prob if the train's cancelled/ delayed etc and I may be late. Already my exisitng colleagues are trying to scare me by saying that in sever winter/ snow all trains will be cancelled.....

 

[Nym]

You don't have to tell me exactly, but what transport corridor in bolton are you in?

St Helens Road, Wigan Road, Chorley New, Chorley Old etc.

 

[kendun]

Nym, Bradford Road, Farnworth/Great Lever(near the Hospital)

 

[Nym]

Yeah, from Bradford Road you're quickest going into Bolton Rail, jump off at Thwates Tyres opposite the derelict church and run across the road...

If for example you lived half way up Wigan Road it would be quicker to go via Westhaughton and get a BusCard Extra.

 

[kendun]

Yeah, from Bradford Road you're quickest going into Bolton Rail, jump off at Thwates Tyres opposite the derelict church and run across the road...

If for example you lived half way up Wigan Road it would be quicker to go via Westhaughton and get a BusCard Extra.

Sorry Nym, didn't get that. Where's Thwates Tyres and which station are you referring to? Is this the station in Kirkby? Looks like I may be using the Bolton, Kirkby,Liverpool Bache option to be in Bache by 8ish as the trains via Wigan/Warrington is less at that time.

 

[Nym]

The bus stop near Bolton Railway Station...

 

[kendun]

The bus stop near Bolton Railway Station...

Why didn't I realise ...