Booked on a train that no longer exists

[diy_dude]

Last week I booked tickets from LNER online from York to Dundee to travel this Saturday. While the 18:55 from York to Edinburgh is still shown on the timetable, the 22:00 from Edinburgh has vanished. I’m guessing this is due to the current ScotRail issues.

If a little frustrated the LNER app still shows my e-tickets and itinerary for the cancelled train.

Any suggestions how I can get to Dundee on Saturday? The 18:35 from York is just a little too early for me.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

The 1855 arrives in Edinburgh at 2123, which means you CAN make the 2130 to Aberdeen, via Dundee. It doesn't respect the minimum connection time, but it should just be across the concourse, so it shouldn't be that much of a rush. Barring delays of course.

 

[lfc84]

Realtime Trains | 2130 Edinburgh to Aberdeen | 27/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 2130 departure from Edinburgh to Aberdeen on 27/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1700 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh | 27/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 1700 departure from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh on 27/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

You might be told to get to Perth and then a taxi from there

Realtime Trains | 2143 Edinburgh to Perth | 27/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 2143 departure from Edinburgh to Perth on 27/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[diy_dude]

The 1855 arrives in Edinburgh at 2123, which means you CAN make the 2130 to Aberdeen, via Dundee. It doesn't respect the minimum connection time, but it should just be across the concourse, so it shouldn't be that much of a rush. Barring delays of course.

If the train from York is delayed that would not meet the minimum connection time and I would be stuck?

I guess my other question is what would happen if I hadn’t checked and just turned up for the trains as shown on my itinary? Would ScotRail have any responsibility for getting me to Dundee, or does cancelling a few days in advance absolve them?

 

[Watershed]

If the train from York is delayed that would not meet the minimum connection time and I would be stuck?

The minimum connection time is the amount of time you (and journey planning software, in particular) have to allow when planning journeys to have a valid connection. You are no longer planning your journey - you are looking at alternative options given your booked train (which was a valid connection) has been cancelled.

I guess my other question is what would happen if I hadn’t checked and just turned up for the trains as shown on my itinary?

Checking just means you find out about the situation earlier, and can thus know about potential alternatives such as the 21:30. It doesn't change your legal rights.

Would ScotRail have any responsibility for getting me to Dundee, or does cancelling a few days in advance absolve them?

They are absolutely obliged to get you to your ticketed destination (under condition 28.2 of the NRCoT, Articles 16(b) and 18(3) of the PRO, and as a matter of basic contract law). Cancelling trains in advance doesn't change the legal position, but that won't stop some poorly trained staff from claiming you are on your own "because that train wasn't planned to run" (err, you have a ticket for it, so it was).

The key thing is that you just need to be prepared for the eventuality where you do get stranded - consider what alternative arrangements you'd make. You'll be able to claim back your costs afterwards, of course.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

While the 18:55 from York to Edinburgh is still shown on the timetable, the 22:00 from Edinburgh has vanished. (...)

Any suggestions how I can get to Dundee on Saturday? The 18:35 from York is just a little too early for me.

I've no doubt the advice you've been given above is good, but it might be worth considering whether you really can't get to York station 20 minutes earlier than you originally planned. I of course have no knowledge of why you're in York, but unless you are there for an event where the timing is out of your control then it might make your journey a lot less stressful by just squeezing that little bit of time out of your day and into your travel.

 

[diy_dude]

I've no doubt the advice you've been given above is good, but it might be worth considering whether you really can't get to York station 20 minutes earlier than you originally planned. I of course have no knowledge of why you're in York, but unless you are there for an event where the timing is out of your control then it might make your journey a lot less stressful by just squeezing that little bit of time out of your day and into your travel.

It’s for an event where timing is out of my control. Currently looking to stay an extra night and travel the following day or a bus from Edinburgh to remove stress.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

It’s for an event where timing is out of my control. Currently looking to stay an extra night and travel the following day or a bus from Edinburgh to remove stress.

7 minutes is an imminently makeable transfer, and ScotRail is required to get you to Dundee if you didn't make it.

 

[Trainguy34]

Probably won't help, but would it be worth booking a hotel in Edinburgh and then claiming the cost of the ticket back in Delay Repay? You could probably leave York later and get a more relaxed journey, arriving in Dundee for 10.30 on Sunday Morning.

 

[diy_dude]

Probably won't help, but would it be worth booking a hotel in Edinburgh and then claiming the cost of the ticket back in Delay Repay? You could probably leave York later and get a more relaxed journey, arriving in Dundee for 10.30 on Sunday Morning.

18:55 was always going to be tight but later itineraries with a change later at Edinburgh were available when I booked.
I didn’t realise Delay Repay was an option as the Dundee train has been cancelled more than a day in advance.

 

[Watershed]

It’s for an event where timing is out of my control. Currently looking to stay an extra night and travel the following day or a bus from Edinburgh to remove stress.

Wouldn't suggest doing that. You'll get nothing at all from the railway if you do that, not even Delay Repay.

If you do travel today, you'll either make the unofficial connection at Edinburgh and likely arrive slightly early, or miss it and get at least as far as Perth by train, leaving just a relatively short distance to travel by bus or taxi (the Ember bus runs until very late at night, although it doesn't stop in the city centre).

Alternatively Ladybank is a bit closer to Dundee, although there is only a bus connection via St Andrews - so a taxi would be the most reasonable option in my view, taking 25 mins.

 

[Class800]

It's a situation where I think making your own alternatives just adds confusion and stress. Be aware of the 7 minute connection option. Position yourself in the best place to make transfer - look at station map online and check real time trains for platforms. Be aware of options if you don't make it and discuss the issue when it arises not before.

 

[mb3]

They are absolutely obliged to get you to your ticketed destination (under condition 28.2 of the NRCoT, Articles 16(b) and 18(3) of the PRO, and as a matter of basic contract law). Cancelling trains in advance doesn't change the legal position, but that won't stop some poorly trained staff from claiming you are on your own "because that train wasn't planned to run" (err, you have a ticket for it, so it was).

The key thing is that you just need to be prepared for the eventuality where you do get stranded - consider what alternative arrangements you'd make. You'll be able to claim back your costs afterwards, of course.

Incorrect. If it is removed from the timetable then the unfortunate circumstances are it does not exist. That section only applies in times of disruption, not industrial action. The alternative is to get an earlier service to make the connection. Last resort would be to cancel the ticket and refund from point of purchase.

 

[Watershed]

I didn’t realise Delay Repay was an option as the Dundee train has been cancelled more than a day in advance.

Compensation is still payable, as much as ScotRail might claim otherwise.

Incorrect. If it is removed from the timetable then the unfortunate circumstances are it does not exist. The alternative is to get an earlier service to make the connection. Last resort would be to cancel the ticket and refund from point of purchase.

This is simply incorrect. A contract is still in place and none of the 'alternative transport' obligations under the NRCoT, PRO or contract law are conditional on the timetable advertised on the day of travel.

 

[mb3]

Compensation is still payable, as much as ScotRail might claim otherwise.


This is simply incorrect. A contract is still in place and none of the 'alternative transport' obligations under the NRCoT, PRO or contract law are conditional on the timetable advertised on the day of travel.

My friend, you are the one with simply incorrect information. The timetable changes are due to industrial action, as such, the procedures RE compensation etc which apply during strikes, apply in this instance.

 

[Watershed]

My friend, you are the one with simply incorrect information. The timetable changes are due to industrial action, as such, the procedures RE compensation etc which apply during strikes, apply in this instance.

And your source for this is...?

Some train companies may pretend that an industrial dispute gets them out of all of their obligations, but this is nothing more than a bare assertion with no legal basis. As the saying goes, don't take legal advice from your opponent! Their obligations are exactly the same as if the train were cancelled for any other reason.

For example, NRCoT 28.2 (as referenced earlier) provides:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

Which part of that paragraph are you suggesting exempts train companies from this obligation?

Article 16(b) of the PRO provides:

Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes, the passenger shall immediately have the choice between:
...
(b) continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

Whilst Article 18(3) provides:

If the railway service cannot be continued anymore, railway undertakings shall organise as soon as possible alternative transport services for passengers.

Again, where are you seeing an exemption from this obligation? To the contrary, the European Court of Justice has held that the PRO's obligations stand even in the case of 'force majeure' circumstances. ScotRail's self-imposed industrial dispute is, in any event, far from constituting 'force majeure', not that this particularly matters.

And as a matter of contract law, @diy_dude has a contract to travel from York to Dundee by means of their Advance ticket. ScotRail have no right to unilaterally terminate the contract; any clause that purported to allow them to do this (not that one exists) would likely fall foul of consumer law.

With respect, I would suggest that you avoid making definitive statements such as this unless you are absolutely sure of what you are saying, and have the necessary sources to back it up. It is not helpful to @diy_dude to be given incorrect information on their rights.

 

[Merseysider]

Incorrect. If it is removed from the timetable then the unfortunate circumstances are it does not exist. That section only applies in times of disruption, not industrial action. The alternative is to get an earlier service to make the connection. Last resort would be to cancel the ticket and refund from point of purchase.

You are categorically wrong. Please stop with the misinformation.

 

[redreni]

I think the contention might be that 'disruption' is to be construed narrowly (i.e. trains not running as per the timetable in place on the day) and does not include cases where the railway has moved the goalposts after the passenger booked and paid for their ticket.

Although 'disruption' is not defined in the NRCoT, support for this contention might, if one were clutching at straws, be found in Condition 30:

"Your Right to a Refund If Your Train Is Disrupted or Rescheduled and You Choose Not to Travel" (emphasis added).

And in the information box above Condition 30.2:

"INFORMATION: Season Tickets have their own compensation process when disruption or cancellation prevents travel." (emphasis added).

The argument would then run that Condition 28.2 cannot apply, as it is not disruption, but something else (industrial action, perhaps), that prevents the OP completing their journey.

It's pure nonsense, of course. What the OP is facing is disruption by any reasonable definition. And even if this ludicrous and self-serving view were accepted, PRO would still apply. Consumer law would still apply.

The reality is the railway may not always do what it's supposed to do, but it is still best to give them a chance to do so, then if necessary make your own arrangements and claim it back afterwards. If you assume they're not going to help you and don't give them a chance to do so, you're on your own.

 

[Starmill]

That section only applies in times of disruption

The train has been cancelled after the OP has already paid for its specific use. How's that not "disruption"?

not industrial action

What "industrial action"? There hasn't been any vote for any industrial action yet.

It's hard to take your posts at face value when you're making basic mistakes?

the procedures RE compensation etc which apply during strikes, apply in this instance.

Can you show me where in the Conditions it says different procedures would apply during strikes, please?

I think the contention might be that 'disruption' is to be construed narrowly (i.e. trains not running as per the timetable in place on the day) and does not include cases where the railway has moved the goalposts after the passenger booked and paid for their ticket.

Although 'disruption' is not defined in the NRCoT, support for this contention might, if one were clutching at straws, be found in Condition 30:

And in the information box above Condition 30.2:


The argument would then run that Condition 28.2 cannot apply, as it is not disruption, but something else (industrial action, perhaps), that prevents the OP completing their journey.

It's pure nonsense, of course. What the OP is facing is disruption by any reasonable definition. And even if this ludicrous and self-serving view were accepted, PRO would still apply. Consumer law would still apply.

The reality is the railway may not always do what it's supposed to do, but it is still best to give them a chance to do so, then if necessary make your own arrangements and claim it back afterwards. If you assume they're not going to help you and don't give them a chance to do so, you're on your own.

Even if that were a very persuasive argument, which as you rightly point out it's not really, it wouldn't be obvious why Condition 30 reads across to 28.

 

[redreni]

Even if that were a very persuasive argument, which as you rightly point out it's not really, it wouldn't be obvious why Condition 30 reads across to 28.

No, you couldn't even run an argument that it reads across. At best you could run an argument that it shows 'disruption' is to be construed narrowly, because it shows it is conceptually distinct from cancellation and also from rescheduling. Hence "disruption or cancellation" not "disruption, for example cancellation" or "disruption, for example rescheduling". And why mention cancellation and rescheduling at all if they're the same as, or included within, disruption?

 

[diy_dude]

I’m going with plan A. 18:55 from York, hope to get the 21:30 from Edinburgh.

I hope didn’t cause confusion over my tickets. I did select the 18:55 departure from York, changing on to the 22:00 at Edinburgh and the itinerary for the e-tickets shows that in the LNER app. The ticket is an off peak single though, not advanced.

 

[Haywain]

I’m going with plan A. 18:55 from York, hope to get the 21:30 from Edinburgh.

I hope didn’t cause confusion over my tickets. I did select the 18:55 departure from York, changing on to the 22:00 at Edinburgh and the itinerary for the e-tickets shows that in the LNER app. The ticket is an off peak single though, not advanced.

If there is a delay to the 1855 I would advise speaking to a member of staff at the earliest opportunity.

 

[diy_dude]

If there is a delay to the 1855 I would advise speaking to a member of staff at the earliest opportunity.

A member of staff on the LNER train, or someone ScotRail via social media, etc?

 

[Starmill]

A member of staff on the LNER train, or someone ScotRail via social media, etc?

Choose an in-person conversation first, then if that yields no assistance or you can't find anyone, speak to customer service on the phone or by social media.

You'll probably just make the connection and nothing will be the matter.

 

[Haywain]

A member of staff on the LNER train, or someone ScotRail via social media, etc?

The LNER train manager.

 

[diy_dude]

The LNER train manager.

Thanks all. Fingers crossed it all works out OK.

I have a backup plan too, just in case. Ember run electric busses from near Waverley to Dundee roughly hourly.

 

[Trainguy34]

Thanks all. Fingers crossed it all works out OK.

I have a backup plan too, just in case. Ember run electric busses from near Waverley to Dundee roughly hourly.

I forgot about them somehow, that's probably a good last resort.

 

[Class800]

How did it go?

 

[diy_dude]

How did it go?

I’m travelling on Saturday.

 

[kkong]

What "industrial action"? There hasn't been any vote for any industrial action yet.

Per the UK Government definition:

Industrial action is when workers:

• go on strike
• take other action, like refusing to do overtime (known as ‘action short of a strike’)