Break of Journey on central Liverpool loop

[mikeb42]

Hello fares experts.

In the coming week I need to make a day return journey which is likely to either be Crewe-New Brighton or Wrexham-New Brighton or similar. I'll need to make it up as I go as usual - depending on the traffic coming from the south on the M6 or A49/A5 and what particular sort of mess the UK transport system is in today.

Either way, on either the outward or return leg (don't know in advance) I will need to go to a meeting in Liverpool city centre.

This means that rather than stay on the Wirral by changing at Birkenhead, I'll be going under the Mersey, around the loop and breaking my journey at Liverpool Central.

Trainsplit and the like seem to think it is fine to go via the loop on the obvious tickets for the above journeys.

However:

i) Is actually breaking the journey at Liverpool Central technically permitted*?
ii) Even if it is, is my suspicion that this is a recipe for entering a world of pain at the gateline well-founded? Doubly so given that I'll be on an e-ticket from Crewe or Wrexham or wherever it ends up being.

Were it not for Merseyrail being a pain in the backside to deal with (no e-tickets, no ToD at the relevant stations) I'd just fork out the rather swingeing extra £3.80 for a return from Hamilton Sq to Central to make the problem go away. *I'm not sure it does even then as Trainsplit leads to the gnomic https://classic.trainsplit.com/TicketDetails.aspx?FareDetailsID=1&RestrictionCode=&TicketCode=SDR&Route=01000&TicketDate=01/05/2023. This states:

Description:

Anytime tickets allow you to travel at any time of the day. You may need to travel by a specific route or train company but the ticket will state this. You are allowed to break your journey.

Break of journey:

Outbound: Break of journey is allowed.

Which in my opinion is definitively ambiguous by failing to say what you're not allowed to do while simultaneously half contradicting itself.

Thanks for any pointers.

 

[Watershed]

With a flexible/walk-up ticket, if a particular route is permitted then you can break your journey at any intermediate station. The only exception would be if a particular route is only permitted because you are using a direct train (either from your origin to your destination, or from your origin to a "via" point on the ticket, or vice versa), or if the wording of the restriction code says that there is a break of journey restriction.

You are changing trains anyway, and an Anytime ticket doesn't have a restriction code, so the above exception doesn't apply. Therefore break of journey at any intermediate station, including Liverpool Central, would be permitted.

I can't see that either Crewe or Wrexham to New Brighton is available as an e-ticket, so you will need to have a paper ticket regardless. Merseyrail have finally entered the 20th Century by allowing you to pick up ToD bookings - albeit at their ticket offices!

I don't think that the validity of either ticket via Liverpool is really that controversial, so I don't see that you should have huge difficulties breaking your journey at Liverpool Central. Worth noting that it's only a very short walk from Liverpool Lime Street to Central though.

 

[30907]

Yes, I would expect hassle on the Wrexham ticket simply because it is so much cheaper than Wrexham-Liverpool and the obvious route is changing at Hamilton Sq - but (to my slight surprise) I can get NRE to validate it using Runcorn as a via point, so a screenshot/printout of that route would be a useful tool, and using Lime Street LL rather than Central as Watershed suggests.
The Crewe fare is clearly valid.

 

[mikeb42]

Thanks both.

I'm still a bit foggy about the Break of Journey restrictions. I understand that the general principle is that BoJ is permitted anywhere along a permitted route on a walkup ticket - except where the ticket has a restriction code which says otherwise. In this case, is that wording from Trainsplit a red herring? If BoJ is permitted on both legs, why have an explicit permission for the outbound leg but not the return?

I shall marshal my arguments - essentially both tickets are valid via South Parkway (regardless of whether I've actually gone that way) therefore BoJ on that side of the Mersey must be permitted and how you got there is your business. Hopefully less belligerence will be required on both sides of the barriers than in my much greater experience of the Paddington gateline being funny about valid tickets they don't like the look of.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If your ticket says Liverpool on it as a destination, it will be swallowed by the gates on the Loop.
I've wondered myself if that doesn't deny a future leg round the loop (eg Lime St to James St, having previously exited at Lime St) but never had reason to do that.
Doesn't really answer your question though.
I don't think you will have any trouble, the gateline staff don't seem to do more than check you have a ticket.

 

[Merseysider]

Shouldn't be an issue.

If it doesn't work in the barrier, just wave it in the general direction of the bloke manning the barriers and walk through the wide gate.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks both.

I'm still a bit foggy about the Break of Journey restrictions. I understand that the general principle is that BoJ is permitted anywhere along a permitted route on a walkup ticket - except where the ticket has a restriction code which says otherwise. In this case, is that wording from Trainsplit a red herring? If BoJ is permitted on both legs, why have an explicit permission for the outbound leg but not the return?

I shall marshal my arguments - essentially both tickets are valid via South Parkway (regardless of whether I've actually gone that way) therefore BoJ on that side of the Mersey must be permitted and how you got there is your business. Hopefully less belligerence will be required on both sides of the barriers than in my much greater experience of the Paddington gateline being funny about valid tickets they don't like the look of.

The wording from TrainSplit isn't a red herring so much as the wording for the return is just missing. But as edited into my above reply, an Anytime ticket always permits break of journey as it has no restriction code.

I don't anticipate you'd have difficulties at the gatelines with either of those tickets.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Yes, I would expect hassle on the Wrexham ticket simply because it is so much cheaper than Wrexham-Liverpool and the obvious route is changing at Hamilton Sq - but (to my slight surprise) I can get NRE to validate it using Runcorn as a via point, so a screenshot/printout of that route would be a useful tool, and using Lime Street LL rather than Central as Watershed suggests.
The Crewe fare is clearly valid.

I am a little rusty on the intricacies of the Routeing Guide but is this relevant? On certain routes via Hamilton Square (e.g. Wrexham-Chester-Birkenhead-New Brighton), journeys via the Liverpool loop will be valid because Hamilton Square is part of Liverpool Routeing Group. You can certainly double back within the group “for interchange purposes”. The question here would be whether breaking your journey while doing so is allowed.

See section 3.12

RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 3 - Routeing

Section 3 - Routeing Contents 3.1 Introduction to routeing 3.2 Through trains 3.3 Shortest route 3.4 Routes shown in the National Routeing Guide 3.5 Doubling back 3.6 Tickets routed via stations that are not on a permitted route 3.7 Group Stations (as an origin/destination) 3.8...

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