Breaking a journey on Oyster pay as you go

[XmaX]

A few years ago, I used to travel on the DLR regularly on Oyster pay-as-you-go. Given that there are no ticket barriers, I would sometimes get out of a station for a couple of minutes without touching out, only to return to the train and touch out somewhere at my final destination. Of course, all was done within the minimum journey time for the zone combination.

Now, after I learned a bit more about fares and ticketing, I am wondering if this is technically allowed. It's probably largely unenforceable anyway on the un-barriered stations (and even more so when using a contactless bank card), but in a theoretical example where a TfL staff witnesses such behaviour, can there be any penalty?

 

[robbeech]

The rules state you must tap out before leaving the station do they not. How is the member of staff that may observe this to know that you even tapped in in the first place. If you go outside the Station to perform another activity then you are making two journeys. I’m not sure what the deal is if you wanted to use Station facilities outside the gate line if there was one.

 

[DelW]

But if you tap out and then fairly quickly tap back in again, doesn't the system consider you as continuing your first journey anyway? If so, there's surely no difference whether you tap out and back in again, or just walk out and back as the OP did.
I've unintentionally fallen foul of that in the past, when delivering something close to a station - I tapped back in within a few minutes, so the system considered me to be continuing my outbound trip, then gave me an unresolved journey for exceeding the single journey time limit. It was a few years ago though, so that may have been sorted out by now. It's also possible that it only occurs at interchange stations where pax may need to go out through one set of gates and in through another.

 

[PeterC]

The rules state you must tap out before leaving the station do they not. How is the member of staff that may observe this to know that you even tapped in in the first place. If you go outside the Station to perform another activity then you are making two journeys. I’m not sure what the deal is if you wanted to use Station facilities outside the gate line if there was one.

If caught short on the Met using the "landside" facilities at Harrow on the Hill results in two journies.

 

[robbeech]

But if you tap out and then fairly quickly tap back in again, doesn't the system consider you as continuing your first journey anyway? If so, there's surely no difference whether you tap out and back in again, or just walk out and back as the OP did.
I've unintentionally fallen foul of that in the past, when delivering something close to a station - I tapped back in within a few minutes, so the system considered me to be continuing my outbound trip, then gave me an unresolved journey for exceeding the single journey time limit. It was a few years ago though, so that may have been sorted out by now. It's also possible that it only occurs at interchange stations where pax may need to go out through one set of gates and in through another.

Not exactly, there are out of station interchanges as you state, where you might change between National rail and the underground for example, Elephant and Castle is an example of this, or Lewisham between the DLR and National Rail, if you tap out and back in within a set time (these times vary and it is worth noting that it can vary per direction, so a NR to LUL transfer at London Bridge has a different time to a LUL to NR time). There ARE instances i've found where you can tap out and back in at the same place and it continues the journey, i'm not sure if this is intentional or an error in the system, Sutton is an example i've come unstuck with here, doing a similar thing, delivering some stuff to someone waiting outside the station.

Hendon Central is another example where toilets are outside the gateline (there are many others) and i'm fairly certain that tapping out here and back in would result in 2 journeys as i don't think it is an OSI interchange with Hendon NR, it's more of a walk than lots of others.

 

[MikeWh]

Oyster is designed for short journeys within the London area where the concept of breaking a journey isn't catered for in most cases. People making a significant number of journeys will cap at a daily rate. There are a large number of interchanges defined such that getting from A to B should always be possible in one journey even if a change of station/mode is involved. If you plan to make a slight detour while walking between stations then you probably won't fall foul of the interchange time.

At most stations a touch out followed by a touch in (at the same station) will start a new journey*. If validators are involved then you'll need to leave 2 minutes between touches, even if you use a different validator. If you don't then you'll effectively be travelling whilst out of the system which may cause problems if checked. There is one station AFAIK where it is impossible to start a new journey until 15 minutes has elapsed. This is Elmers End and is one that I am genuinely concerned about as it does sometimes cause problems.

Walking away from a DLR station without touching out and returning a few minutes later is definitely against the rules. If you were stopped by a revenue officer then you could certainly expect a penalty fare.

*If disruption occurs (planned or otherwise) then the Oyster control centre will sometimes set an Emergency OSI. This means that touch back in within 30 minutes will continue the journey. This can sometimes have undesired consequences, but the helpline will resolve issues caused by this.

 

[XmaX]

Walking away from a DLR station without touching out and returning a few minutes later is definitely against the rules. If you were stopped by a revenue officer then you could certainly expect a penalty fare.

That is what I thought. However, given that there is a set penalty for not touching out (£7.80, i.e. an incomplete journey), can there actually be a more serious penalty issued?

How about doing the same thing, but while travelling between non-gated NR stations within London on Oyster? As breaks are generally allowed on rail journeys, do TfL/Oyster rules and pricing take precedence here?

 

[MikeWh]

That is what I thought. However, given that there is a set penalty for not touching out (£7.80, i.e. an incomplete journey), can there actually be a more serious penalty issued?

Yes. A penalty fare issued by TfL is for £80, reduced to £40 if paid within a set time (14 days?).

How about doing the same thing, but while travelling between non-gated NR stations within London on Oyster? As breaks are generally allowed on rail journeys, do TfL/Oyster rules and pricing take precedence here?

These conditions apply when using Oyster on National Rail services.

 

[robbeech]

That is what I thought. However, given that there is a set penalty for not touching out (£7.80, i.e. an incomplete journey), can there actually be a more serious penalty issued?

This is not really a "penalty" as such. It is simply the maximum single journey fare (in this case a peak time fare). The system Knows you tapped into at a certain point, and doesn't see you tap out within the maximum permitted time so it assumes you are out of the system, and have not tapped out. It can't let you have the journey for free or everyone would do it all the time, and it can't let you have the journey for the cheapest 1 zone fare or people would be doing stuff like Lewisham to Mill Hill East all the time so the only sensible thing it can do is charge the maximum single fare as if you had travelled from one end to the other. this encourages people to tap in and out properly. The real issue comes when you go over your maximum journey time, as you'll get 2 maximum fares on your journey history, a Touch in (where you started) to "not touch out" and "no touch in" to a touch out (where you end). The only "penalty" aspect of this is it doesn't count towards your daily cap.

If you are CAUGHT in the system with an oyster card that is not "in the system" then you will receive a real penalty like what Mike has stated above.