Brighton to London St Pancras annual ticket validity

[Cleebs]

I plan to purchase an annual season ticket for commute between Brighton and London St Pancras. I don't require London Underground but I do not want to be limited to Thameslink services only in case of cancellations etc....so two options appear:
Brighton - London Thameslink
Brighton - London St Pancras

These are both the same price at £4744, and the only difference when clicking more info is that the London Thameslink one lists valid stations (all stations between London Bridge and St Pancras + Elephant and Castle)

Does anyone know the difference between these two tickets? which one would offer the best route validity/flexibility, ie would I be able to travel to/via London Victoria if needs be?

I have queried this with National Rail and GTR but have been sent round in circles!

Any help would be really appreciated, thanks!

 

[miklcct]

I would say that there is no difference between the two tickets. The reason is because the St Pancras is the final valid station on the Brighton - London Thameslink ticket. You are free to use any operators' service on the route to London St Pancras.

None of the tickets are valid to London Victoria. You need another ticket to complete the Clapham Junction - London Victoria part as the season ticket is valid using the route East Croydon - Clapham Junction - London Waterloo - London Bridge - London St Pancras.

 

[MrJeeves]

As I understand it, both have equal validity (as the ticket to STP will allow break of journey at all the in-between stations, which are also part of the London Thameslink group), and are just the result of different fares in the database. Neither will allow you travel to Victoria.

There's a diagram on the NRE site that shows what stations are in "London Thameslink" and "London Terminals":

If you want to be able to travel to Victoria, you could get a season ticket to London Terminals, but the northernmost London Terminals station is City Thameslink, so this won't let you travel to St Pancras. It costs the same as a London Thameslink season.

I have a feeling that, if you chose the BTN-STP season instead of BTN-London Tlk., it would still be issued as a season to London Tlk, but I'm not totally sure.

Technically, a season to STP is also valid via various other stations, including Clapham Junction and Waterloo, but don't expect to be able to travel that way without getting into an argument with gateline or RPI staff.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Assuming the rules for seasons are the same as for individual tickets with that routing, the two wordings mean the same thing. In the past I've asked for "St P - Brighton" tickets and sometimes got ones saying "St P - Brighton" and sometimes got ones saying "Thameslink - Brighton"; but they've always been the same price and always seemed to have the same validity, ie to/from any station between St P and London Bridge (though, within London, using a T/L service - they've both explicitly said "Not via Underground").

NB for day tickets - presumably seasons too - there are also tickets routed via "Thameslink" services only, as opposed to having a T/L station destination; both are at the same lower price (lower than a completely route-unrestricted and train-colour-unrestricted London-Brighton ticket, that is). But the "via T/L trains" ones only get you to a southern London terminal, so no good for going as far as St P, whilst the T/L destination tickets, for the same price, are OK for that - as well as not being train-specific south of London - see next para.

The T/L (or St P) origin/destination - Brighton tickets are not (at least the day ones) restricted to T/L trains. So you can use any Brighton-London train on any valid Brighton-London route (ie including via Hove or Lewes). However, you have to be en route to or from a T/L station at the London end. So although you can use Southern-branded trains as well as T/L ones (and indeed, at the Brighton end, trains branded Gatwick Express as well), you can't go as far as Victoria since you're off-route (given that the ticket doesn't allow cross-London travel to St P by Underground).

Besides using trains from the south heading towards London Bridge, and/or E&C, I've also often used tickets routed between T/L stations (or St P) and Brighton to go as far north as Clapham Junction, and then across to Waterloo, since travel via CJ - Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge is (I've always understood!) a valid route between Brighton and, eg, St P. But that logic doesn't cover the stretch between CJ and Victoria. (Nor would it the line between Waterloo East and Charing X.)

No doubt a season ticket expert will be along soon - my experience with the validity of these tickets might not necessarily carry over to seasons.

I assume that to have the option of going via Victoria on your season, you'd need one to London Terminals [leaving you to pay for the cross-London stretch on top], or one routed to St P which included cross-London tube journeys. I'm sure that either would - by analogy with equivalent day tickets - be much more expensive!

 

[Haywain]

There's a diagram on the NRE site that shows what stations are in "London Thameslink" and "London Terminals":

That's nice and clear, isn't it? "London Terminals" or "London Thameslink Terminals"!!

 

[plugwash]

The fixed link from Charing Cross to Blackfriers is "transfer" not "tube" so arguablly a ticket to St Pancras would be valid to travel that way even if not valid on the underground. IIRC it's even possible to get national rail enquiries to generate itinaries for such.

Whether the gateline will see it that way is another matter.

 

[4COR]

I think the newly added negative easement in the Routing Guide has made this journey invalid via Charing Cross and Cannon St:

701088 (Circuitous Route) Journeys to London Thameslink destinations are not valid via London Canon Street or London Charing Cross. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

 

[Cleebs]

Thanks all for your help!

I have made a (mostly unsuccessful!) attempt to make sense of the routing guides and bit confused as to why London Victoria wouldn't be a valid route as it is a part of London Group as is London St Pancras and when looking at routes between Brighton Group and London Group, the route maps show maps LB and VB as valid routes between these groups??

I'm pretty happy with validity as far as Clapham Junction though as I could simply buy a separate relatively cheap Clapham Junction to London Victoria ticket if needed for any reason outside of any service disruption.

In regards to service disruption, I need to travel via London St Pancras this Saturday when there is industrial action and therefore no direct Brighton-St Pancras trains and NR journey planner showing change at London Victoria - Can I assume there will be ticket acceptance at Victoria?? also would there be ticket acceptance on the Underground as I have no choice but to use the tube to get to St Pancras?

Thanks again

 

[miklcct]

I have made a (mostly unsuccessful!) attempt to make sense of the routing guides and bit confused as to why London Victoria wouldn't be a valid route as it is a part of London Group as is London St Pancras and when looking at routes between Brighton Group and London Group, the route maps show maps LB and VB as valid routes between these groups??

The reason it isn't valid is because your ticket has London St Pancras as the destination, and it is impossible to travel from Victoria to St Pancras without leaving the London group other than by the Underground.

It is valid into Waterloo because it is possible to travel from Waterloo to St Pancras without using the Underground, by changing at London Bridge.

If, instead, if the destination on your ticket is London Terminals, or London Victoria, it is valid to travel into London Victoria by the route you have mentioned, but such tickets won't be valid into London St Pancras because a London Terminals ticket can't be used beyond City Thameslink through Farringdon (which is not a London Terminal).

In regards to service disruption, I need to travel via London St Pancras this Saturday when there is industrial action and therefore no direct Brighton-St Pancras trains and NR journey planner showing change at London Victoria - Can I assume there will be ticket acceptance at Victoria?? also would there be ticket acceptance on the Underground as I have no choice but to use the tube to get to St Pancras?

If ticket acceptance is announced on the tube, then you can (practically) use it into Victoria.

 

[maniacmartin]

This can of worms has come up before on this forum and its a bit of a grey area.
Clearly the ticket isn't intended to be valid via Victoria. However, the data does have a "Transfer" fixed link between Victoria and St Pancras, from 00:01 to 05:29, to account for times when the tube isn't running. You can avoid the debate about whether a journey can start or end with a transfer by using a similar "Transfer" to somewhere like London Bridge. Therefore I would argue that the ticket is technically valid.

In practical terms, having used such a ticket once at Victoria myself a few years ago, I don't advise it. It won't operate the gates and will lead to an argument with gateline staff.